Mixed feelings about survey done today

[CX54WEK]

Those BELLOWS.....Have they have been changed in past 2 years ..and you want proof,not a mumbled "Think so", even better hopefully more recently.
An inexpensive unremarkable little bit of rubber tube held on with a couple of stainless bands and possibly the single most critical piece of kit on the boat.
Failure of this bit of £50.00 item could cost you thousands......check it out.
Ideally an invoice from the local VP man detailing change of both exhaust and U/J bellows, change of oil and perhaps even shaft/gearchange seals and of course new oil in gearbox.
These are items which need doing/checking at regular intervals.

Indeed.

With any boat you want concrete evidence that the boat has been serviced on a regular basis.

When buying a boat you are really only buying someone elses "to do" list. You want to ensure that it is as small as possible.

Servicing can often be overlooked in older boats as the cost of parts starts to become a higher and higher percentage of the value of the boat.

 

[M1800R]

Its an MCA bill of sale most brokers use. One is available from RYA but never seen one used yet.

Thank you Aquapower.
So, I take it that if we go ahead I will be receiving the company's own drafted bill of sale instead.
Any way to find out previous owners and other stuff similar to what hpi does?
Kind regards.

 

[CX54WEK]

No there is no HPI for boats!

You need invoices to prove works carried out. Most owners keep a folder of invoices to prove what work has been carried out.

 

[M1800R]

Those BELLOWS.....Have they have been changed in past 2 years ..and you want proof,not a mumbled "Think so", even better hopefully more recently.
An inexpensive unremarkable little bit of rubber tube held on with a couple of stainless bands and possibly the single most critical piece of kit on the boat.
Failure of this bit of £50.00 item could cost you thousands......check it out.
Ideally an invoice from the local VP man detailing change of both exhaust and U/J bellows, change of oil and perhaps even shaft/gearchange seals and of course new oil in gearbox.
These are items which need doing/checking at regular intervals.

Hi oldgit, I make you 120% right. I did ask the dealer when I first went to see the boat for receipts etc of work carried out and he did not comeback until I chased again. I was then told that the owner has been doing most of the jobs himself (nothing wrong with that) therefore there was no recent receipts.
My first reaction will say the bellows are maybe 2 years old by simple mathematics. The boat has been out for 9 months and I will assume they where there the previos season, so I think it is safe to assume they have been there for 2 years. If I do go ahead I would have asked the marine mechanic to change them in any case as the cost of replacing them far out weights the cost of damage should they fail.

 

[CX54WEK]

Hi oldgit, I make you 120% right. I did ask the dealer when I first went to see the boat for receipts etc of work carried out and he did not comeback until I chased again. I was then told that the owner has been doing most of the jobs himself (nothing wrong with that) therefore there was no recent receipts.
My first reaction will say the bellows are maybe 2 years old by simple mathematics. The boat has been out for 9 months and I will assume they where there the previos season, so I think it is safe to assume they have been there for 2 years. If I do go ahead I would have asked the marine mechanic to change them in any case as the cost of replacing them far out weights the cost of damage should they fail.

Even if people are doing the work themselves I would still expect to see invoices for the purchase of the items.

 

[M1800R]

Hi CS54WEK,

Thank you for this. I have requested an engineer to have a look at all the mechanical bits and have an estimate as how much the total bill will be. The engine has very low hours as it is practically new. The drive to the untrained eye looks good and I could not see any sign of corrosion. The anods do need replacing but this is normal stuff.
I will keep you guys posted. I am sure this is going to be a long road for me.
Kind regards

 

[M1800R]

Hi CS54WEK,

So, no HPI, potentially no receipts as the dealer said so and we are assuming that if the owner has receipts for the purchase of parts require to do a schedule service he would have said so, issues with humidity readings etc, the list is getting longer. Should I cut my losses and say, no thank you very much or should I go ahead with the work that the engineer may come with as (I would have done it before she is put back on the water) and perhaps get another surveyor to do the readings again as an independent and not related party to the dealer?

 

[mlines]

On the other hand, it can be possible to over analyse the situation. I would suspect that if you waited for a boat with every single piece of paperwork in place you could wait a long time. As others have said, the main value in a boat of a certain age is the engines and drive. If these run well, the boat is clear of finance, and the surveyors happy then a missing receipt here and there is by the by.

I would wait for the survey and see what it says. The survey becomes a further negotiation point on price, either get the seller to fix it and pay the asking price or knock the estimated repair costs from the survey off the asking price.

 

[lionelz]

Hi, thank you for this.
I know exactly what you mean. In one week I have paid surveyor, Powerboat level 2, potentially decent size mechanics bill and insurance proposal, on top of that mooring fees to come lifting the boat for the sea trial and I have not even purchase the thing yet or started the season.
I think "very brave" is an understatement. lol
Kind regards

LOL I have my survey being done this Friday, I think I'm already about £4k in the hole and rising steadly, and its only going to get worse. As for the survey, I think you just have to trust the professionals. I am also having mine serviced after the sea trial but unless you take the engine apart no one knows what going on inside and what wear and tear there is. You just have to make a leap of faith and cross your fingers. You appear to be doing all the right things (as I think I am) so you are minimizing your risk, but there is always risk when every you buy anything and the older the item normally the bigger the risk :ambivalence:

 

[M1800R]

On the other hand, it can be possible to over analyse the situation. I would suspect that if you waited for a boat with every single piece of paperwork in place you could wait a long time. As others have said, the main value in a boat of a certain age is the engines and drive. If these run well, the boat is clear of finance, and the surveyors happy then a missing receipt here and there is by the by.

I would wait for the survey and see what it says. The survey becomes a further negotiation point on price, either get the seller to fix it and pay the asking price or knock the estimated repair costs from the survey off the asking price.

Thank you Mlines,

To be honest given the fact she is 30 years old I would expect to see a few imperfections and lots of DIY, unless it is something really big I could have lived with it and definitely work around the issue to fix it down to my standards, the engine, drive and rest I will leave it to the engineer to come with a quote and take it from there but to be honest I believe they are ok, they may only need a service and will insist in changing the bellows, no questions there. My problem is the humidity levels in the hull. I have spent hours doing some research and by chance came across the web site of the manufacturer that build the meter the surveyor used and the scale or interpretation of reading is a bit alarming. I have pasted an extract and bearing in mind that my lowest reading was 49 and the boat has been out for 9 months. The reading will only increase once she is back in the water and to be honest I am seriously concerned. I am not expert and know nothing about boats.

31 -45
19 – 20
% H20 (WME) Considered high and at a level where the risk of moisture related defects being present, but not yet physically detectable, is significant.
46 - 60
21 – 22
% H20 (WME) Very high and is usually accompanied by physically detectable signs.

In any case I will wait for the report and get some sleep (if I can)
In the meantime I would like to thank each and one of you for your kind replies, wealth of advice and more importantly, your time to reply to some one like me, clueless.
Kind regards

 

[tico]

Could the high reading be due to a small puddle of water inside the bilge that has been sitting there for 9 months?
Otherwise Grp hulls have been around for several decades and I can't recall one that has sunk from osmosis.

 

[M1800R]

Could the high reading be due to a small puddle of water inside the bilge that has been sitting there for 9 months?
Otherwise Grp hulls have been around for several decades and I can't recall one that has sunk from osmosis.

Hi Tico,

The engine bay was very tidy and clean. If there was a small puddle it had to be very small as I could not see any from where I was standing on. I don't think the hose connected to the pump would have drained all the water because the pump is seating higher than the engine and I will expect a return water left on the hose to draw back once the pump stopped working.

Will have to wait for the report and read it very carefully before my next step. I do like the boat, I know she is not a new craft and I am prepared to put some serious elbow grease on the hull as she looks a bit tired in some areas but if the hull is compromised or I am bound to have some blisters or costly repairs I rather walk away while I can.

Kind regards.

 

[Chris_d]

I've seen a few surveys and moisture readings for Thames based boats and these are normally fairly high as they sit for many years in freshwater, a high reading is 20%+ so I would say 50% is definitely on the high side. Whether its a problem or not depends on the hull construction and only the surveyor can comment. However a lot of US mass produced boats use balsa cored hulls and if you have water trapped in the void or the balsa cores its not good, it might still be ok but needs an expert to assess it.

 

[Wavey]

To do list

Take a deep breath. Life's too short to get worked up and lose sleep over this.

Await surveyor's written report. Having read it (several times) and digested it, then discuss over the phone with him points that are of concern to you.

Await engineer's report and do likewise.

Take note of the comments on here but do not allow them to make your final decision for you.

Having done the above decide in your own mind whether or not you are happy to proceed. If you have nagging doubts or concerns in any way then give this one a miss and start looking again. There is absolutely no point in buying a boat where you're going to be worrying over its structural integrity, mechanical fitness and whether or not you did the right thing. There's plenty more boats out there (even if you have to wait a while to find the right one) but you'll know when you do.

Boating is for pleasure (so I'm told ) and you're going to be parting with your hard earned cash. Be absolutely happy in your own mind you're comfortable with the boat you're buying before you go ahead with it.

Best of luck in your hunt whether it be this one or another.

 

[Hurricane]

I can't comment on the moisture levels specifically.
But I would consider that the moisture levels on the meter manufacturers web site is trying to prove a point.
My experience of moisture meters is that you do need to know how and where to use them - the example of water pooling inside is a good one.

However, my point for posting is that I've been in your situation before and know exactly how you feel.
We bought a second hand (third hand in fact) Sealine which was very much "unloved".
There were lots of things wrong with her and the surveyor pointed out some "show stoppers".
So we renegotiated the price to pay for repairs and brought back to a good example of her brand.
Now to my main point (and Superheat's comment)
Lots of people say that the best 2 days of owning a boat are the day you buy her and the day you sell it.
For me this is NOT TRUE
Things just got better and better and so we replaced her with a new Princess.
Boats for me have always been near the top of my list for enjoyment but motorboating has become a way of life.
I think back now to that day when our Sealine was swinging in the travel hoist and the surveyor was crawling all over her.
That day, the deal could have gone either way.
But we ended up buying her - AND WE HAVE NEVER REGRETTED IT.

Good luck - either way you go.

 

[kcrane]

Lots of people say that the best 2 days of owning a boat are the day you buy her and the day you sell it. For me this is NOT TRUE
Things just got better and better... Boats for me have always been near the top of my list for enjoyment but motorboating has become a way of life.

Good luck - either way you go.

+1 to that sentiment

 

[CX54WEK]

Thank you Mlines,

To be honest given the fact she is 30 years old I would expect to see a few imperfections and lots of DIY, unless it is something really big I could have lived with it and definitely work around the issue to fix it down to my standards, the engine, drive and rest I will leave it to the engineer to come with a quote and take it from there but to be honest I believe they are ok, they may only need a service and will insist in changing the bellows, no questions there. My problem is the humidity levels in the hull. I have spent hours doing some research and by chance came across the web site of the manufacturer that build the meter the surveyor used and the scale or interpretation of reading is a bit alarming. I have pasted an extract and bearing in mind that my lowest reading was 49 and the boat has been out for 9 months. The reading will only increase once she is back in the water and to be honest I am seriously concerned. I am not expert and know nothing about boats.

31 -45
19 – 20
% H20 (WME) Considered high and at a level where the risk of moisture related defects being present, but not yet physically detectable, is significant.
46 - 60
21 – 22
% H20 (WME) Very high and is usually accompanied by physically detectable signs.

In any case I will wait for the report and get some sleep (if I can)
In the meantime I would like to thank each and one of you for your kind replies, wealth of advice and more importantly, your time to reply to some one like me, clueless.
Kind regards

A quick link the Tramex Skipper users guide.

http://www.tramex.ie/User_Uploads/Short_guide_to_using_the_Tramex_Skipper_Moisture_Meter_on_GRP.pdf

As you can see readings should be taken from the %H2O scale which doesnt go around to 50%.

I suspect the reading you have was the comparitive scale which would put the 50% in the amber section of the scale.

 

[ari]

Thank you Superheat6k

On the contract/agreement (that I have yet to sign) the broker did not mention the RYA standard form of sale, she just mentioned the Bill of sale. I presume this is not the same, this is just like the deeds of the boat and a declaration from the owner that there is not incumbencies on the boat.
Am I correct?

You're having a survey and engine inspection but the agreement hasn't been signed? That's unusual. Have you paid a deposit?

 

[ari]

Hi CS54WEK,

So, no HPI, potentially no receipts as the dealer said so and we are assuming that if the owner has receipts for the purchase of parts require to do a schedule service he would have said so, issues with humidity readings etc, the list is getting longer. Should I cut my losses and say, no thank you very much or should I go ahead with the work that the engineer may come with as (I would have done it before she is put back on the water) and perhaps get another surveyor to do the readings again as an independent and not related party to the dealer?

Is your surveyor a related party to the broker? You should really be using an independent surveyor. He's supposed to be on 'your side', not related to the broker and therefore possibly giving you advice tainted by wanting to 'help the sale along'.

 

[Portofino]

Having read through this thread , I would be very weary .
Principly an old sterndrives with what seems little or no history -DIY without spares invoices -I would walk .
The high moisture content is not exactly what you need to hear particularly if the boat is cored .Coring is a cheap way to build a hull by using less resin /matting -it saves wieght so lower engine power is needed for a given speed .
Find a small old shaft drive boat -I,am not convinced older Sealines are the way to go .
At the Mech survey you really need to find out when the drive oil ( invoices please ) was changed .
Problem is this if it's been DiY ,d while the boats been stood for 9/12 then you will not know if it's milky .
Cos he,s disguised a seal leak -by refreshing the oil .
If its milky before you put it in the water -walk away .
If it milky after the sea trail -walk away .
At that age without invoices to say otherwise -milky oil may NOT be just a simple seal -more likely a drive rebuild £1000 +
Marine engines really should have annual oil change -to remove build up of acids which are corrosive .
This is fine in regularly used car -extended oil changes say 20K every 2y or what ever cos reg use keeps the oil moving .
In a boat it's stud with the engine off for weeks / months -the acid just sits in the bearing journals doing harm.
That's another tell tail -where are the invoices ?