Mark-1
Well-Known Member
Tillman and Simon Richardson will be in there and I doubt Minn jinxed them.
Missing yachtswoman in South west.
- Thread starter FistralG
- Start date
Tillman and Simon Richardson will be in there and I doubt Minn jinxed them.
A1Sailor
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A few years ago I met a delightful elderly couple on the passenger ferry across Oban Bay to Kerrera. They were returning to their yacht, in which they had crossed the Atlantic from the USA. They were heading back home, having been to Scandinavia. Since they had rather a lot of shopping, I offered to help them get it all on board. They thanked me, but the lady explained there was no need. Her father had remained on board, and would help!
PeterR
Well-Known Member
This is a very sad event but my main worry is what the knock on effects for all of us may be when the safety brigade get their teeth into it. The lady may or may not have had sufficient experience to undertake this passage but I question her decision making whatever the actually cause of the tragedy.
I don’t think there is anything intrinsically wrong in setting off on a passage of 20 hours single-handed. My insurance company is happy for me to do up to 36 hours -provided I have an autohelm – and I think that is a fairly standard stipulation for those companies that do allow single-handing. (at least at the moment). I don’t think age is a problem – I usually find youngsters crashing out long before the old and bold.
I think the real problem lies in the area she was making her passage. Having served at Chivenor I know the Taw/Torridge estuary well and in poor weather it has one of the most dangerous bars I have ever come across. The entrance is only really tenable from HW-2 to HW. Dangerous seas build up on the ebb and even in that 2-hour-window before HW I have surfed in on the swell so fast that there was no wind left in the sails. I have seen small coasters putting their bows under even in fair weather when the swell rolls in. If the entrance is not tenable there is almost nowhere to go. With the wind in the North you either heave to and wait or head offshore to Lundy and try and find shelter behind that. With the wind in the West you can try and find shelter off Clovelly or look at Ilfracombe – but that is only available at HW + or – 3hrs and even then only if you have bilge keels. (I assume she must have had bilge keels as there is no water left at Bideford at LW. That also explains why a millionaire is buying a Moody 31. Anything bigger is of little use in the estuary.)
I know she did not get far enough for the entrance to pose a problem but to attempt a long single-handed passage in poor weather when you know you are going to be faced by those potential problems at the end of it does not strike me as sound seamanship. My guess would be that she went OB for reasons unknown. Anything less dramatic and she could have put out a call for assistance. That can happen to anyone but is far more likely to happen to someone inexperienced.
I would hate to see insurance companies imposing restrictions on single-handing based on very occasional incidents like this.
I don’t think there is anything intrinsically wrong in setting off on a passage of 20 hours single-handed. My insurance company is happy for me to do up to 36 hours -provided I have an autohelm – and I think that is a fairly standard stipulation for those companies that do allow single-handing. (at least at the moment). I don’t think age is a problem – I usually find youngsters crashing out long before the old and bold.
I think the real problem lies in the area she was making her passage. Having served at Chivenor I know the Taw/Torridge estuary well and in poor weather it has one of the most dangerous bars I have ever come across. The entrance is only really tenable from HW-2 to HW. Dangerous seas build up on the ebb and even in that 2-hour-window before HW I have surfed in on the swell so fast that there was no wind left in the sails. I have seen small coasters putting their bows under even in fair weather when the swell rolls in. If the entrance is not tenable there is almost nowhere to go. With the wind in the North you either heave to and wait or head offshore to Lundy and try and find shelter behind that. With the wind in the West you can try and find shelter off Clovelly or look at Ilfracombe – but that is only available at HW + or – 3hrs and even then only if you have bilge keels. (I assume she must have had bilge keels as there is no water left at Bideford at LW. That also explains why a millionaire is buying a Moody 31. Anything bigger is of little use in the estuary.)
I know she did not get far enough for the entrance to pose a problem but to attempt a long single-handed passage in poor weather when you know you are going to be faced by those potential problems at the end of it does not strike me as sound seamanship. My guess would be that she went OB for reasons unknown. Anything less dramatic and she could have put out a call for assistance. That can happen to anyone but is far more likely to happen to someone inexperienced.
I would hate to see insurance companies imposing restrictions on single-handing based on very occasional incidents like this.
single
Well-Known Member
A few years ago I met a delightful elderly couple on the passenger ferry across Oban Bay to Kerrera. They were returning to their yacht, in which they had crossed the Atlantic from the USA. They were heading back home, having been to Scandinavia. Since they had rather a lot of shopping, I offered to help them get it all on board. They thanked me, but the lady explained there was no need. Her father had remained on board, and would help!
Maybe the shopping was ballast and the father was in a coffin.It that what they meant
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Thank you for a very good post.
[23929]
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The brokerage listing stated it was a fin keel version.
bitbaltic
Well-Known Member
This is what I had thought was the case, that Bideford dries, but I was only going on recollection from the pilot. The boat was (at least listed by the brokerage as being) the fin keeled version of the Moody 31. Not that I wish to join the conspiracy theorists but it seems a strange combination of boat and intended home port to me.
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Agreed but the question of quality of life and enjoyment. If its all about reducing risk to almost zero I would have to stop riding my motorcycle every day from the New Forest to London and back. Now that journey is worth at least two grins every day even when its raining but perhaps I am too young for your outlook on life as I am only 66.
I do object to my 40yr old son now beating me consistantly at squash though. Oh well there is always the next match!! Next will be my two grandaughters going faster on the black runs during our new Year skiing holiday. Well lets hope the celebral matter and experience evens things up a bit dinghy racing next year as we will certainly be doing the nationals. Oh what with growing old I almost forgot -somewhere in between doing all these things I must try and find some time to grow old!! Now where was I!!
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A1Sailor
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Maybe the shopping was ballast and the father was in a coffin.It that what they meant
Her father was aged 97, and was given the option of not sailing with them - but didn't want to miss out on two trans-atlantic crossings...
Georgio
Well-Known Member
Hope I'm doing the same has his age. My parents still live aboard for 3-4 months a year and are approaching 70yrs young.
Shorn100
Well-Known Member
Is there more to this?
Am I the only one to think that the more I hear about this incident the more I feel there's something not quite right here.
Or is it simply because I have a suspicious nature.
Shorn
Am I the only one to think that the more I hear about this incident the more I feel there's something not quite right here.
Or is it simply because I have a suspicious nature.
Shorn
maby
Well-Known Member
I don't think you are entirely alone.
PeterR
Well-Known Member
There are a few moorings in the channel at Instow that retain a bit of water but I doubt a fin keel Moody would stay upright at springs. Even if it did the water in the rest of the estuary is too shallow to allow a fin keeler to explore very far and the limitations on entry and exit make it difficult to sail outside for day sails. I don't recall any fin keelers being based there although we got occasional visitors at neaps.
jimi
Well-Known Member
There are 2 issues here
1) On the facts known was it unreasonable to do this voyage. My view is no.
2) Speculation .. was there more going on than we know, where this voyage was a cover for a scam of some sort. Who knows!
Lets not mix up the two.
1) On the facts known was it unreasonable to do this voyage. My view is no.
2) Speculation .. was there more going on than we know, where this voyage was a cover for a scam of some sort. Who knows!
Lets not mix up the two.
bitbaltic
Well-Known Member
This is more or less what I thought. The choice of boat looks very strange to me, especially for a sailor of some experience.
Pete7
Well-Known Member
Just going back to the qualification thing, if she was 65 then it is likely she did adventurous training in the services and it could have been any of the 3, but that would likely be 4 decades ago. How many people had VHF back then? it wasn't even compulsory for smaller yachts in the 79 Fastnet.
The broker said she had a "captains licence" well I believe the current RYA sailing scheme was first developed from what the services were teaching and awarding as qualifications. The services may well have granted their own captains qualification to those who could skipper a small yacht at the time, before they adopted the RYA scheme.
If you look at the RYA log books they have a letter and number. Mine says G15/83, the first edition was Feb 1979, the date of our current RYA sailing scheme perhaps? The G being part of the then Armys A/G/Q administration system and refers to training.
A tragic loss of life, if just one person reads this and has second thoughts about a hastily organised trip in a strange yacht then perhaps it wasn't in vain.
Pete
The broker said she had a "captains licence" well I believe the current RYA sailing scheme was first developed from what the services were teaching and awarding as qualifications. The services may well have granted their own captains qualification to those who could skipper a small yacht at the time, before they adopted the RYA scheme.
If you look at the RYA log books they have a letter and number. Mine says G15/83, the first edition was Feb 1979, the date of our current RYA sailing scheme perhaps? The G being part of the then Armys A/G/Q administration system and refers to training.
A tragic loss of life, if just one person reads this and has second thoughts about a hastily organised trip in a strange yacht then perhaps it wasn't in vain.
Pete
dt4134
Well-Known Member
I thought the poor weather theory had been knocked on the head. The forecast I have was for the wind to drop over the course of Sunday so it seems to have been quite reasonable not to expect poor weather when approaching the Taw/Torridge Estuary.
Whether she had sufficient experience or local knowledge of the estuary is an unknown.
Seajet
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A tragic loss of life, if just one person reads this and has second thoughts about a hastily organised trip in a strange yacht then perhaps it wasn't in vain.
Agreed !
I had heard from early reports that this lady had undertaken a refresher course; now it seems she was advised to take one.
However given the boat and conditions I still don't see why the trip should have ended in tragedy; sure I would have wanted a crew if at all available, experience not required just an 'organic autopilot' to allow rest, but this was by no means an Ellen MacArthur style venture !
I'd say most sailing and even navigation - if one has learned it properly to begin with - is like riding a bike, one doesn't forget it; and as for ' unfamiliar boat ', well unless it sprang a big leak and she couldn't find the plugs & hole etc, one doesn't get a much more basic boat than a Moody 31, I know several novices who sail them.
I suspect theories about scams are really based on the hope the skipper is still alive; a nice idea but sadly doesn't look likely now.
Maybe in the lack of AIS records radar traces may eventually shed some light on what happened, but whatever it was it's a tragedy, condolences to her husband and family.
doug748
Well-Known Member
I have joined this thread a bit late and, I have no doubt that my point has been made earlier, and better, but.
The passage was a difficult one. Land's End can be a wicked place, not a spot I would want to be at night in October with biggish tides and seas, in an untried boat, with rusty skills and 65 years on the clock. With a four in the forecast you are just a likely to get a local seven with plenty of scope for repeatably filling the cockpit. It can very soon get a great deal to handle. In comparison, a cross channel passage would be far less stress.
Mark Fishwick tells the story of the Mousehole fisherman Jack Pender who told him:
"West of the Lizard is no place for a small boat, come the end of August"
A bit of exaggeration no doubt, but I would have not had the bottle to tackle it in that manner.
The passage was a difficult one. Land's End can be a wicked place, not a spot I would want to be at night in October with biggish tides and seas, in an untried boat, with rusty skills and 65 years on the clock. With a four in the forecast you are just a likely to get a local seven with plenty of scope for repeatably filling the cockpit. It can very soon get a great deal to handle. In comparison, a cross channel passage would be far less stress.
Mark Fishwick tells the story of the Mousehole fisherman Jack Pender who told him:
"West of the Lizard is no place for a small boat, come the end of August"
A bit of exaggeration no doubt, but I would have not had the bottle to tackle it in that manner.
PeterR
Well-Known Member
Prior to the RYA system the services issued a Joint Services Yacht Proficiency Certificate with options of Yacht Hand, Day Skipper, Coastal Skipper, Offshore Skipper, and Ocean Skipper.
I am 64 and having looked at my certificate I was awarded Coastal Skipper in 1978. By 1980 when I got my Offshore ticket the awards were RYA based so I guesss the transfer point was indeed in 1979. "Captain's certificate" as a term didn't feature anywhere in the services yacht training scheme and women did not serve as watchkeepers in the RN in those days.