Maybe forced to upgrade our C80 and radar....

[davethedog]

Evening all,

As we are getting ready to set off to the Canaries for the winter and then possibly to the med next year as usual a problem has arisen!

After 2 years of trouble free use, went to turn on the Raymarine C80 MFD today and the screen was a series of lines and black bits. Numerous reboots and pressing of the screen have not sorted it, so next step is to take the C80 apart to see if it is the infamous loose ribbon issue.

However, this has now got me thinking and considering upgrading the MFD system we currently have to a newer Axion pro with the Quantum radar.

So my thoughts are (if the C80 is not repairable, or maybe even if it is repaired to alleviate any issues with spares in the future) to achieve the following, thoughts welcome?
1. Replace the existing analogue radar we have with a quantum radar, using the existing radar cable that is already in the mast to supply the 12v power to the quantum radar (aware the 12V connectors will need modifying from the old analogue radar to the quantum radar connectors). Thus avoiding any extra cable run to the mast.
2. As the current system has ST60 instruments using Seatalk 1, use a Seatalk 1 to NG converter to interface the ST60s with the Axiom pro.
3. Replace the C80 with an Axiom Pro 9".
4. Use the NMEA in for the Axion pro for the Raymarine ST3 autopilot computer and the Raymarine AIS transponder.

Thoughts in this please?

And yes, it will cost a lot and still considering what to do!

DTD

 

[davethedog]

Any comments and suggestions please?

 

[Halo]

Any comments and suggestions please?

I had the same problem. It was the ribbon connector and after repair the system has worked fine (touch wood ! ) I would try the repair and leave it at that if it works. Previous threads have contacts for professional repair

 

[davethedog]

Thanks and that is the first option I am looking at, was it easy enough to dismantle the Unit?

 

[prv]

Same problem here, and after a couple of Service Centre repairs which didn’t last, went for a similar solution to what you’re proposing.

I’m distrustful of wireless networking for critical items (though there is some truth in the comment by a colleague that “radio waves don’t corrode”) so I ran both power and data cables to the new radar. Your plan to reuse the power cores from the existing cable should work, but since you need to be up there anyway to change the unit itself, and in your case do some modifications to the end of the cable (splicing, soldering, and adhesive heatshrink, not a 10-second swap) I don’t really see what you’re hoping to save by it versus using the old cable to pull through the new one(s). You will also need to modify the arrangements at the lower end since the new plotter doesn’t supply the power to the radar.

The new radar is significantly lighter than the old, and fits the same bolt holes. The new cables are thinner and lighter. The radar picture is noticeably better, and the MARPA-style target tracking actually works, which it never did in any useful way on my C80 system.

The new data cable, if you decide to use it, is just Cat-6 ethernet cable with proprietary plugs. So you can use any standard networking hardware in the middle. I cut mine just below the deck, crimped a standard RJ45 onto each side, and joined them in an IP66 coupler. Thus I can easily split the cable to take the mast down (I also put a Superseal connector in the power side). Additionally I looped the cable through the space behind my chart table before going up to the plotter in the cockpit; this is future-proofing so that if I ever add more ethernet-connected equipment I can cut the loop, install RJ45s, and insert a standard industrial network switch without having to re-run any cables to the plotter or radar. In summary, don’t think of it as special “radar cable”, it’s just a standard network on which, initially, there are only two devices being the plotter and the radar.

For the other connections, the ST1 / STng converter worked as expected. My plotter is the Axiom 9 (not the Pro, which hadn’t been released at that point) which doesn’t have any NMEA0183 ports, so I used Actisense’s AIS converter to transfer the AIS data from my receiver onto the STng bus. This was a nice neat solution (especially given Actisense’s screw terminals that can directly accept cut STng cables and the NMEA direct from the radio, meaning no extra plug adapters or connectors) but since you have 0183 direct on your plotter you might as well use that instead.

I don’t quite understand what you mean by using an “NMEA in” for your autopilot (what data are you expecting to send from the pilot to the plotter?), nor am I familiar with an “ST3” model. But assuming it’s a “classic” Raymarine pilot of similar vintage to the plotter, you will probably get as much or more integration through the Seatalk converter as through any NMEA connections. However, that integration won’t be much - Raymarine dropped support for Seatalk1 pilots in the Axiom software, and while they could potentially add it back in a software update (for the plotter or the ST1/STng converter), I’m not aware of them having done so.

This means that, having selected a track on the plotter, you should be able to select Track mode on the plotter head and have the pilot follow it. But you will lose the ability that you presumably currently have with the C80 (I did with my S1 pilot) to directly engage and control the pilot from the plotter. Not solely for this reason (though it was a factor) I ended up upgrading the pilot to the current generation about a year after the plotter/radar upgrade. Using the same drive unit the new pilot steers noticeably better than the old, having accelerometers to feel the three-dimensional motion of the boat in the same way a good helmsman does, and anticipate instead of having to wait for the bow to actually be off the course like the old purely compass-driven pilot. The pilot control is fully integrated into the plotter, and in fact the plotter screen is a more convenient control for the pilot than its dedicated head unit, which would be entirely unnecessary if the plotter were at the helm (mine isn’t).

Pete

 

[davethedog]

Thanks for the advice and a few comments from me:

Same problem here, and after a couple of Service Centre repairs which didn’t last, went for a similar solution to what you’re proposing.

I’m distrustful of wireless networking for critical items (though there is some truth in the comment by a colleague that “radio waves don’t corrode”) so I ran both power and data cables to the new radar. Your plan to reuse the power cores from the existing cable should work, but since you need to be up there anyway to change the unit itself, and in your case do some modifications to the end of the cable (splicing, soldering, and adhesive heatshrink, not a 10-second swap) I don’t really see what you’re hoping to save by it versus using the old cable to pull through the new one(s). This is to avoid having to remove headlining etc as that is a pain in my boat..You will also need to modify the arrangements at the lower end since the new plotter doesn’t supply the power to the radar. Did not realise this.

The new radar is significantly lighter than the old, and fits the same bolt holes. The new cables are thinner and lighter. The radar picture is noticeably better, and the MARPA-style target tracking actually works, which it never did in any useful way on my C80 system.

The new data cable, if you decide to use it, is just Cat-6 ethernet cable with proprietary plugs. So you can use any standard networking hardware in the middle. I cut mine just below the deck, crimped a standard RJ45 onto each side, and joined them in an IP66 coupler. Thus I can easily split the cable to take the mast down (I also put a Superseal connector in the power side). Additionally I looped the cable through the space behind my chart table before going up to the plotter in the cockpit; this is future-proofing so that if I ever add more ethernet-connected equipment I can cut the loop, install RJ45s, and insert a standard industrial network switch without having to re-run any cables to the plotter or radar. In summary, don’t think of it as special “radar cable”, it’s just a standard network on which, initially, there are only two devices being the plotter and the radar.

For the other connections, the ST1 / STng converter worked as expected. My plotter is the Axiom 9 (not the Pro, which hadn’t been released at that point) which doesn’t have any NMEA0183 ports, so I used Actisense’s AIS converter to transfer the AIS data from my receiver onto the STng bus. This was a nice neat solution (especially given Actisense’s screw terminals that can directly accept cut STng cables and the NMEA direct from the radio, meaning no extra plug adapters or connectors) but since you have 0183 direct on your plotter you might as well use that instead.

I don’t quite understand what you mean by using an “NMEA in” for your autopilot (what data are you expecting to send from the pilot to the plotter?), nor am I familiar with an “ST3” model. My mistake it is an S3. But assuming it’s a “classic” Raymarine pilot of similar vintage to the plotter, you will probably get as much or more integration through the Seatalk converter as through any NMEA connections. However, that integration won’t be much - Raymarine dropped support for Seatalk1 pilots in the Axiom software, and while they could potentially add it back in a software update (for the plotter or the ST1/STng converter), I’m not aware of them having done so.

This means that, having selected a track on the plotter, you should be able to select Track mode on the plotter head and have the pilot follow it. But you will lose the ability that you presumably currently have with the C80 (I did with my S1 pilot) to directly engage and control the pilot from the plotter. Not really used that function much to be honest. Not solely for this reason (though it was a factor) I ended up upgrading the pilot to the current generation about a year after the plotter/radar upgrade. Using the same drive unit the new pilot steers noticeably better than the old, having accelerometers to feel the three-dimensional motion of the boat in the same way a good helmsman does, and anticipate instead of having to wait for the bow to actually be off the course like the old purely compass-driven pilot. The pilot control is fully integrated into the plotter, and in fact the plotter screen is a more convenient control for the pilot than its dedicated head unit, which would be entirely unnecessary if the plotter were at the helm (mine isn’t). What pilot computer did you go for and easy enough to replace the old one?

Pete

 

[prv]

All current Raymarine pilots are the “Evolution” system, the various options are essentially just different packages of components.

The brains of the system are in the AHRS “puck” which contains the various sensors and connects by STng; there’s a version with some additional connectivity (not sure if it’s just software or additional CAN hardware as well) for interfacing with fancy motorboat control systems - obviously I chose the other and this will be common to any yacht system. Since it includes a compass I mounted it inside the hollow wooden leg of my cabin table which is nicely away from any metal objects and any lockers where metal objects might be stowed - when we bought the boat the original S1 compass was in a locker which, one day, my dad used to store extra beer in steel tins and we went round in circles until this was discovered.

There’s an Actuator Control Unit which handles the heavy power switching, and is roughly the same shape and size as the old “brain” units. There’s a range of types suitable for different drive mechanisms; since I was keeping my existing Type 1 linear drive I needed one with sufficient power and a clutch output - that being the ACU-200. It didn’t fit the same screw holes, but otherwise was a like-for-like replacement including all the cables apart from using STng instead of ST1.

Finally I added the p70 control head, which again connects into the STng bus. As I mentioned earlier, this wouldn’t be essential if you were mounting an Axiom plotter at the helm and intended to have it on whenever under way, but the first isn’t true for me and while the second typically is these days, it’s not something I want to make mandatory.

I think I bought these items as a pack with some other bits, as it was cheaper than ordering them individually, and sold on what I didn’t need.

Pete

 

[davethedog]

Update, took the c80 apart and reseated all the ribbon cables and is now working again.

Question is do I trust it?

Dtd

 

[Halo]

Update, took the c80 apart and reseated all the ribbon cables and is now working again.

Question is do I trust it?

Dtd

If you put it together right then why not. Would you rather trust a new system partly integrated into an old one ? Your choice really
If you have a mobile phone with g p s and can get lat and long then you have the ability to put your position into a paper chart whenever you want. A few years ago just that would have been a marvel !

 

[prv]

If you put it together right then why not. Would you rather trust a new system partly integrated into an old one ? Your choice really

My experience with C80 screen repairs (on two units) is that they fix things for a while but eventually fail again. One of the failures we had (fortunately a temporary one that responded to careful pushing on the screen) was in very thick fog among the rocks off St Malo - at one point we could smell a French warship going past without being able to see it visually. That experience was what decided us on replacing the plotter with a new one we could trust.

I don't see any risk in the integration of old and new; it's all as-designed by the manufacturer and in any case the critical bits are all on the "new" side.

If you have a mobile phone with g p s and can get lat and long then you have the ability to put your position into a paper chart whenever you want. A few years ago just that would have been a marvel !

Provided the GPS signals are reaching me I have lots of ways to see my position on a chart, both electronic and paper. But I only have one way to see the output from the radar, and in poor visibility that's both my navigational cross-check and my collision-avoidance. An unreliable radar is potentially worse than no radar - had we not been equipped, we probably would have sat tight in Chausey until the fog lifted, whereas we set off relying on it and, had the failure been permanent, we'd have been totally reliant on GPS for position input, on 100% accurate charting to avoid any static obstacles, and on the skippers of the small fast motorboats we could hear to detect and avoid us since we couldn't locate them.

If you have radar then you need to be able to trust it, and even though the radar itself was fine on the C80 system, the screen faults meant I couldn't trust the system as a whole to remain available and so it had to be replaced.

Pete

 

[davethedog]

Good replies and as I have numerous backups (tablets with navionics as well as phones for the charts) it is more the radar and AIS that is the important part. Think I will price up the new kit and then decide (although looking at £3500 for the kit itself).

DTD

 

[dunedin]

I’m distrustful of wireless networking for critical items (though there is some truth in the comment by a colleague that “radio waves don’t corrode”) so I ran both power and data cables to the new radar.

I do find it delightfully quaint that people are nervous about using a wireless (ie radio based) connection for ....... a RADAR, which is by definition wireless wave transmission based already (the hint in the first R).
As are VHF, AIS etc.

Our Quantum radar only has a power cable, and works perfectly with a wireless connection for the data signal. Also much better radar than previous generation Raymarine.

 

[davethedog]

Well we have decided to bite the bullet and update the plotter abd radar and as we are now liveaboard and heading to thecanaries in about 6 weeks gone for an axiom Pro and quantum 2 doppler radar with a wired connection (just in case)!

Will the sell on the c80 and analogue radar as they seem to be going for good money considering their age.

 

[prv]

I do find it delightfully quaint that people are nervous about using a wireless (ie radio based) connection for ....... a RADAR, which is by definition wireless wave transmission based already

I know

On the other hand, a radar pulse doesn't need to agree on an SSID or WPA2 PSK in order to encrypt and decrypt network traffic and exchange UDP packets - it's considerably simpler with less to get out of sync and stop working.

But yeah, you do have a point

Pete

 

[alexsailor]

I’ll use this thread: since my vintage Raymarine RLC died I have to buy a new plotter for my sy (43feet). What should I go for? I was looking for Axiom 9 (what stands PRO for) and radar quantum 2 dopller plus AiS module.
Did anyone bought smth. like that and can share his/her experience? Would appreciate it...

 

[davethedog]

Hi and we upgraded to the axiom 9 Pro and quantum 2 doppler radar... So much better than the c80 and old radar we had. Went for the pro as better screen resolution and the sd card slot is on the front as well as the keypad built in as touchscreen is good but in a rough sea you need buttons too.

We used a raymarine adaptor to interface our seatalk instruments to the new plotter and the ais650 we had already interfaced easily too.

 

[alexsailor]

great. thank you. I guess model 9 will be the optimum size? not too small? (located in front of the steering whell; the boat has only one).

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