Mast Problem another candidate for the Darwin award

Praxinoscope said:
Refueler.
Problem is a sort of serial, boat is not new to me but bought early in 2019 shipped on artic’from other side of U.K., so mast was obviously not erected, until it arrived here, all’s seemed fine for the rest of the season, we dropped mast in winter of 2019 intending to do some work on the head, then Covid, so 2020 not launched, then local council who run the harbour decreed no craning of boats in 2021 so first time since 2019 mast has been erected, and this is where I should have engaged brain before action, missed the point that the forestay had been connected to the chainplates two holes up and connected chainplates and forestay through bottom hole as can be seen in the early photo’s.
Spent half of this season trying to work out why couldn’t get mast to rake correctly and lose the slight bow aft at cross tree level.
Sudden dawning of my stupidity when the penny finally dropped that the forestay was in the wrong hole for this particular boat, and by raising it up I get the made rake I want.
Click to expand...

Fully understood .. and appreciated your description. My hope is that now all sorted - you can get to enjoy the boat ...
 
Praxinoscope said:
Vyv

yes both the uppers and lowers are marginally aft of the mast on the 25, so if the forestay is not correct ( a Point we now accept, tightening the lowers not only straightens the mast laterally (if needed) the also introduce a pull astern causing th mast to perform an ‘inverse’ bend.
With the forestay re-fitted two holes up the chainplates this should alleviate the aft pull of the lowers and hey presto the rake should be correct with no inverse bend.
Of course I could be wrong and this won’t cure it, but I do feel reasonably confident that this will solve the problem.
Click to expand...

Fingers crossed it all works out.

This now is just a comment and not to create any fuss .... setting forestay pinned to a hole in chainplates seems to me a bit coarse in adjustment. Geometry indicates only a small change in backstay / forestay lengths can cause actually quite a rake change. Think I'll stick with my bottlescrew ! But of course I also have fwd and aft led babystays to control mid mast
 
All the standing rigging was renewed 18 months before I bought her, and a straightforward swaged terminal was used for the forestay, so forestay tension is completely governed by backstay tension.
 
For Praxinoscope it is unusual to not have a baby stay or inner forestay on mast head rig . Obviously the designer thinks the mast is robust enough ie large fore and aft dimension to support itself in the middle.
It may be relying on spreaders swept aft to meet the cap shroud (or more) to provide push forward of middle of mast against the aft pull of the intermediate shrouds. So if extra mast rake does not fix middle aft mast bend then...
options are more cap shroud tension. I think you have gone to max already, more sweep aft of the spreaders. Do make sure the spreaders are robust in holding the angle aft. (Could be worn spreader sockets.) or lastly you have too much tension on intermediate shrouds.
I have sailed on one 40fter where there was provided an inner forestay that can be attached to a point on fore deck in strong winds purely to control mast pant. ie extra pull forward of middle of mast. (ok as temporary measure but does impede tacking the jib.) ol'will
 
zoidberg said:
There certainly are TWO variants of the Plastimo 609S ( and possibly other ranges ) - one which has 5 short s/s straps and one which has 11 s/s longer straps. The latter is intended to accommodate a rigging screw within, with a wider range of adjustment - the former is not.

The long straps version can have the WIDTH of the straps adjusted within the drum, due to elongated slots. The short straps version cannot, as it is not intended that a rigging screw should fit between them.
Click to expand...


Amendment to above #20:

I have discovered that it is certainly possible to modify the 'short straps' version so as to accommodate a rigging screw. These and their longer cousins are made in a T-shape, with holes in the transverse small legs to permit pairs of little bolts to secure the straps into the interior of the furler bowl. These are normally visible.

The 11-hole 'longer straps' have slotted holes which permit readjustment to 'wider' so as to make space for a rigging screw. The corresponding 'round' holes in the shorter 5-hole straps can be drilled out to 'slotted' if wanted, to permit similar readjustment...... Disassembly/reassembly is quite easy, with common tools. 'Drilling out' not quite so easy.
 
Last edited:
William _H the Sadler 25 and I think the 26 both had rig designs with no baby stay, as there were over 300 25s built, (not sure off hand about how many 26’s, but think there were more) and the 25 has been around for over 40 years with as far as I know no mast failures, the designers seem to have got their sums right.
My previous boat, a 26’ Invicta did have a baby stay.
 
Last edited:
Praxinoscope said:
William _H the Sadler 25 and I think the 26 both had rig designs with no baby stay, as there were over 300 25s built, (not sure off hand about how many 26’s, but think there were more) and the 25 has been around for over 40 years with as far as I know no mast failures, the designers seem to have got their sums right.
My previous boat, a 26’ did have a baby stay.
Click to expand...

I noted in a number of photos ... a single babystay fastened to same point as cap shroud ... (25)
 
Praxinoscope said:
William _H the Sadler 25 and I think the 26 both had rig designs with no baby stay, as there were over 300 25s built, (not sure off hand about how many 26’s, but think there were more) and the 25 has been around for over 40 years with as far as I know no mast failures, the designers seem to have got their sums right.
My previous boat, a 26’ did have a baby stay.
Click to expand...
Yes the Sadler26 appears to have the same rig. I have an original brochure

Refueler said:
I noted in a number of photos ... a single babystay fastened to same point as cap shroud ... (25)
Click to expand...
Surely a baby stay goes to spreader height, the same height as the lowers. That is how it can be used to induce forward mast bend when forward lowers are not fitted.

I have also noticed that one or two Sadler25s in various photos have had a baby stay fitted. Presumably to cure the problem that Praxinoscope is having
 
Praxinoscope said:
William _H the Sadler 25 and I think the 26 both had rig designs with no baby stay, as there were over 300 25s built, (not sure off hand about how many 26’s, but think there were more) and the 25 has been around for over 40 years with as far as I know no mast failures, the designers seem to have got their sums right.
My previous boat, a 26’ did have a baby stay.
Click to expand...
I think all Sadlers had a mast section that was a size larger than used by most others. The ones on the 25 and 26 were considered stiff enough not to need a babystay. The stay on our 34 terminates a very short distance forward of the mast step, requiring considerable tension to pull the centre forward in a slight bow.
 
Réf my post #64 last sentence was incorrect, I have altered it, but it should have read ‘26’ Invicta’ not just 26’ which may cause confusion.
 
VicS said:
Yes the Sadler26 appears to have the same rig. I have an original brochure


Surely a baby stay goes to spreader height, the same height as the lowers. That is how it can be used to induce forward mast bend when forward lowers are not fitted.

I have also noticed that one or two Sadler25s in various photos have had a baby stay fitted. Presumably to cure the problem that Praxinoscope is having
Click to expand...

Seems we have a confusion of terms ..... Babystay - to me and most people I know regard babystay as to the SIDE of boat - from spreader level, usually one leading slightly aft - with another slightly forward. If its a forward from spreaders to foredeck - then termed fwd babystay .....

I accept that some like yourself use term 'lowers' ....

Unlike forestay / backstays - I do not recall a hard and fast term for them.

My post was mentioning that many photos I have found show a short stay from spreader level down to same point as the cap shroud. This allows mast to be bent by fore / aft stays while controlling 'mid-height' .... not as well as the usual twin arrangement ..
 
Refueler said:
Seems we have a confusion of terms ..... Babystay - to me and most people I know regard babystay as to the SIDE of boat - from spreader level, usually one leading slightly aft - with another slightly forward. If its a forward from spreaders to foredeck - then termed fwd babystay .....

I accept that some like yourself use term 'lowers' ....

Unlike forestay / backstays - I do not recall a hard and fast term for them.

My post was mentioning that many photos I have found show a short stay from spreader level down to same point as the cap shroud. This allows mast to be bent by fore / aft stays while controlling 'mid-height' .... not as well as the usual twin arrangement ..
Click to expand...
Not to me. The babystay is attached to the centreline of the boat. Lower stays are attached one at each side, maybe forward and aft.
 
Refueler, I think there is a variation of terminology here, the stays I think you describe on the Sadler 25 are what I would term ‘lowers’ or ‘lower shrouds’, on the 25 and I think the 26, they go from just under the spreaders to the same chainplate as the ‘upper shrouds’ which is set slightly aft of the centre of the mast. The rigging plan for the 25 does not show a baby stay which in the terminology I understand would go from a fixing on the forward side of the mast lower than the spreaders to a chainplate on the foredeck.
In the Sadler owners manual it specifically points out that unlike the Sadler 29 and Sadler 32 the Sadler 25 does not have a baby stay.

Thanks to all of you who have helped with your suggestions, I am still waiting for the winds to drop a bit I really don’t want to do this job in anything more than a 3, and the low tide to coincide with the lower wind speeds.
Hope to get this job done this weekend.
Will let you all know if it has solved the initial problem, I am sort of 99% certain it will.
 
Last edited:
I recall the ould fellah with whom I raced a few multihulls using the term 'swifters' to descibe the lower shrouds. He's the only soul I heard use that expression. Can anyone shed some light on't...?
 
zoidberg said:
I recall the ould fellah with whom I raced a few multihulls using the term 'swifters' to descibe the lower shrouds. He's the only soul I heard use that expression. Can anyone shed some light on't...?
Click to expand...

Not sure that he was correct in using the term swifter for the lower shrouds, according to the ‘Manual of published for the Admiralty in 1951 a ‘swifter is the rope used to ensure the ‘capstan bars’ are held in place when a capstan is operated manually. Attaching the rope to the capstan bars was called ‘passing the swifter’ and there was a specific method of attaching the swifter to each bar.
 
When it comes to terminology - especially when it comes to that which is not on all boats - certainly has variation.

I have never had any problem with anyone working with me when de-rigging or rigging masts when I've referred to babystays ... and when its to do with fwd centre line version - I have stated fwd babystay. I learnt the times as a kid helping out in boat yards as a kid ... lowers I heard as well but not as often.

Its the old matter of saying shroud or stay ....

It can be localised convention, or convention based on frequency of use ... even down to comonality in forums !!

Anyway ... guy appears to have his solution ... hopefully he will sort his mast rake and have good sailing.
 
dankilb said:
Always “lowers” in our boatyard if referring to shrouds (just finishing a DIY complete re-rig - but working alongside the pros who did the swaging etc.). For me, stays have always been fore-aft, while shrouds are either side.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. The only exception perhaps is jumper stays
According to The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea a babystay is "A short stay attached on deck just forward of the mast and used to control the mast's lower part. A storm jib may be set on it."

For anyone else confused by the terminology see the Selden Hints and Advice pdf:-
https://support.seldenmast.com/files/595-540-E.pdf

.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top