Mast Ascending options : recommendation needed

[vyv_cox]

I don't think that I would use an electric winch, but my anchor windlass is well up to the job.
It is 'one way' and has a horizontal shaft rope capstan, operated by a deck foot switch so the operator isn't in touching distance of the windlass when tailing it.

My windlass is 2-way, also with a rope capstan. It has a remarkable propensity to form riding turns which rules it out for me. I use a cherry picker whenever possible €100/hour and well worth it. I have used my Mastclimb last year, still just about able.

 

[Graham_Wright]

You are clutching at straws.
That makes me wonder if you have ever seen a rope under tension on a windlass or for that matter a winch!
The drum has a slight taper forcing the rope away from the end.

Not really. We have demonstrated at many exhibitions and outdoor events and merely pass on the stories we have heard.

One visitor approached the stand exhibiting half a finger. The other half was lost to the anchor winch.

Perhaps the most remarkable story was when approached by a quiet rather diminutive visitor who asked if it would be possible to climb a mast using a MastaClimba single handed. He was intending a round the world trip.

While assuring him it was, we offered a demonstration.

I do not allow stand visitors to climb single handed as the descent process is a little "exciting".

The ascent technique involves using an ascender (Petzl or Fort West etc) and a harness or chair.

As Petzls come in right and left hand versions. I asked hime which he preferred.

At that point, he revealed the absence of an arm.

I confessed that stumped me.

However, he added that he once lost his rig over the side and spent 48 hours retrieving it and creating a jury rig which got him to the Azores where a better repair was effected. He sailed with that to Fleetwood to do the job properly. Wow!

If you had spent as many hours as I have involved in discussions with health and safety officers you might have a similar level of knowledge on winches and rope breaking strains as I have.

 

[LadyInBed]

We have demonstrated at many exhibitions and outdoor events and merely pass on the stories we have heard.

I have just realised that you have a product to push which helps to explain your bias toward mast climbers, which I have nothing against, it's just another method, one of which as I have previously said I am looking into using.

One visitor approached the stand exhibiting half a finger. The other half was lost to the anchor winch.

How many people approach your stand, it must be lots, and you can only site one case of a lost finger, and you don't say if it was the result of hoisting up the mast or working with the anchor. If it was that dangerous to hoist someone up on a windlass or winch I would have thought that there should be many cases.

If you had spent as many hours as I have involved in discussions with health and safety officers you might have a similar level of knowledge on winches and breaking strains as I have.

First you site ropes falling off the end of a winch, now you are suggesting that there is a breaking strain issue in using an anchor windlass or winch.
With you knowledge of winches and breaking strains apparently gained by many hours in discussions with health and safety officers, you appear to ignore what I think is probably the 'weaker link in the chain', that is the sheave and spindle at the top of the mast, is that because it is common to both / nearly all methods of mast climbing?
If that can take the load without approaching its breaking strain, I don't, with my limited knowledge, think we need to worry about the strain on an anchor windlass or winch.

 

[Graham_Wright]

I have just realised that you have a product to push which helps to explain your bias toward mast climbers, which I have nothing against, it's just another method, one of which as I have previously said I am looking into using.

How many people approach your stand, it must be lots, and you can only site one case of a lost finger, and you don't say if it was the result of hoisting up the mast or working with the anchor. If it was that dangerous to hoist someone up on a windlass or winch I would have thought that there should be many cases.

First you site ropes falling off the end of a winch, now you are suggesting that there is a breaking strain issue in using an anchor windlass or winch.
With you knowledge of winches and breaking strains apparently gained by many hours in discussions with health and safety officers, you appear to ignore what I think is probably the 'weaker link in the chain', that is the sheave and spindle at the top of the mast, is that because it is common to both / nearly all methods of mast climbing?
If that can take the load without approaching its breaking strain, I don't, with my limited knowledge, think we need to worry about the strain on an anchor windlass or winch.

I misled. I have edited - "rope breaking stain".

I had to deal many times with an ill educated health and safety advisor who had the power to prevent our demonstrations.

Although we had provided black up safety systems (not for the purposes of the exhibition but identical to our own practice on board), it was impossible to convince said officer we had thought of everything. His many repeated objections were "it doesn't seem safe" without being able to explain why.

I certainly do not ignore the risks present in the rest of the rig. On my boat, halyards lead down inside the mast. If the halyard shackle is outside the mast, that is a significantly increased risk and one which is difficult to counter except by maintenance of the component parts. The answer is to provide safety back ups. Aboard, I have two - one under my exclusive control.

During exhibitions we have heard of accidents. The visitor with the severed finger was indeed the only one who presented. The poor lady who lost both hands has not visited. Despite presenting to visitors all the arguments for not using powered winches (which are professionally supported (the arguments, that is)) there were still those who claimed "I will continue to use the powered winch".

Ultimately, it is a matter of personal consideration and risk.

And, by the way, it is "cite" not "site"!

 

[LadyInBed]

And, by the way, it is "cite" not "site"!

Oh deer, nothing left to be said ?

 

[zoidberg]

However, he added that he once lost his rig over the side and spent 48 hours retrieving it and creating a jury rig which got him to the Azores where a better repair was effected. He sailed with that to Fleetwood to do the job properly. Wow!

If you had spent as many hours as I have involved in discussions with health and safety officers you might have a similar level of knowledge on winches and rope breaking strains as I have.

Fairey Nuff!

Graham Wright's kit works well enough and reliably, provided you invest the time to understand it.
It is not at all suitable for fools.... but then, one could say the same about boats.

 

[Travelling Westerly]

FWIW I hoist a 4 to 1 block and tackle and pull myself up. Very easy to set up and work. Not sure why this is not a popular choice? Am I missing something?

 

[Graham376]

If the halyard shackle is outside the mast, that is a significantly increased risk and one which is difficult to counter except by maintenance of the component parts. The answer is to provide safety back ups.

Despite presenting to visitors all the arguments for not using powered winches (which are professionally supported (the arguments, that is)) there were still those who claimed "I will continue to use the powered winch"

Sorry but your arguments don't hold water. If the halyard shackle wasn't outside the mast, it would be very difficult to attach the main. I never use the shackle, prefer a bowline with a couple of half hitches.

You keep quoting the dangers of using powered winch or windlass but can't cite one mast climbing accident when using either. Even allowing for the potential of accidents when using them normally, in the tens of thousands of times they're used every year for raising sails and anchors, there are very few accidents reported.

Personally, I think there are far more dangers in using climbing equipment without instruction.

 

[fredrussell]

FWIW I hoist a 4 to 1 block and tackle and pull myself up. Very easy to set up and work. Not sure why this is not a popular choice? Am I missing something?

Sounds interesting, but doesn’t it require a very long length of rope? The way I’m picturing it you would need a rope four times the length of the mast? If I’ve got that wrong, can you describe your system please.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Sounds interesting, but doesn’t it require a very long length of rope? The way I’m picturing it you would need a rope four times the length of the mast? If I’ve got that wrong, can you describe your system please.

If any wished to go that route I would consider using a chain block hoisted by a halyard. A lot safer As it self locks so if you loose the hoisting line you will not fall.

 

[Travelling Westerly]

Sounds interesting, but doesn’t it require a very long length of rope? The way I’m picturing it you would need a rope four times the length of the mast? If I’ve got that wrong, can you describe your system please.

You're right there, 4 times the length but it brings my self weight hoisting down to 20 odd KG which is very easy to cope with.
I would not bother with a chain block. Just use a rope jammer on the harness, it locks the rope off when /if you need a rest. Cant recommend it enough.
If it all goes wrong then your standby person (if you use one) can just down slack on the halyard you used to hoist the block up with and hence lower you. Very civilised way of going up the mast and I find once you get there you're in a fit state to work still

 

[TiggerToo]

My preferred option is two ascenders and a climbing harness. One ascender for the feet (climbing tape rigged as two loops of the right length), and the other ascender for the harness

 

[Laser310]

Sorry but your arguments don't hold water. If the halyard shackle wasn't outside the mast, it would be very difficult to attach the main. I never use the shackle, prefer a bowline with a couple of half hitches.

I'm pretty sure he is referring to an external halyard - where both parts are outside the mast..., and the halyard runs through a block a the top of the mast. It's not an ideal setup for ascending the mast.., but on some boats there is no choice. If the block fails, or the attachment to the mast fails.., you better have a backup.

FWIW I hoist a 4 to 1 block and tackle and pull myself up. Very easy to set up and work. Not sure why this is not a popular choice? Am I missing something?

That would seem to have the exact problem i just discussed - I would never do that without someone tailing a back up halyard.., but if you have help.., they can probably just grind you up.

 

[greeny]

If any wished to go that route I would consider using a chain block hoisted by a halyard. A lot safer As it self locks so if you loose the hoisting line you will not fall.

I' d think that may be one heavy setup with the exceptionally long falls of chain that would be required. Doubt i could even pick it up.
I seem to remember years ago that there was something on the market like a chainblock that used rope insted of chain. You hoisted the block up the mast on a halyard or two(safety). Then the rest was done by rope system. If i remember correctly there was a failsafe incorporated at the top that stopped it running out unchecked and self locked. The block at the top had a neoprene wrap round cover to stop it clattering aginst the mast and causing damage.
The problem with a lot of these systems is that the mechanism at the top stops you getting high enough to do the job you're up there for.

 

[Laser310]

I' d think that may be one heavy setup with the exceptionally long falls of chain that would be required.

I am 100% certain that one doesn't want something with as much mass as that much chain hoisted up your mast at sea, in even a small swell...

i think it would have a good chance of swinging out of control.., and would do quite a job on the mast as it periodically clanked against it.

 

[greeny]

I am 100% certain that one doesn't want something with as much mass as that much chain hoisted up your mast at sea, in even a small swell...

i think it would have a good chance of swinging out of control.., and would do quite a job on the mast as it periodically clanked against it.

Apologies Laser, I was editing while you were typing.

 

[Travelling Westerly]

I' d think that may be one heavy setup with the exceptionally long falls of chain that would be required. Doubt i could even pick it up.
I seem to remember years ago that there was something on the market like a chainblock that used rope insted of chain. You hoisted the block up the mast on a halyard or two(safety). Then the rest was done by rope system. If i remember correctly there was a failsafe incorporated at the top that stopped it running out unchecked and self locked. The block at the top had a neoprene wrap round cover to stop it clattering aginst the mast and causing damage.
The problem with a lot of these systems is that the mechanism at the top stops you getting high enough to do the job you're up there for.

Yes I remember that system, was very costly I seem to remember (£1000 plus)?
I agree the downside is the top pully/block stops at the point the halyard enters the mast but I have a set of steps at the top to allow me to just stand up

 

[Travelling Westerly]

I'm pretty sure he is referring to an external halyard - where both parts are outside the mast..., and the halyard runs through a block a the top of the mast. It's not an ideal setup for ascending the mast.., but on some boats there is no choice. If the block fails, or the attachment to the mast fails.., you better have a backup.



That would seem to have the exact problem i just discussed - I would never do that without someone tailing a back up halyard.., but if you have help.., they can probably just grind you up.

Not too sure about what you mean being the exact same problem you just discussed, getting tired so I may just have misunderstood you but the halyard I use to hoist the block is run inside the mast and the hoisted pully/blocks and line are climbing equipment not sailing equip so do not have the same failure point/concern of an external block used for external halyards. Hope that makes sense?

 

[Laser310]

Not too sure about what you mean being the exact same problem you just discussed, getting tired so I may just have misunderstood you but the halyard I use to hoist the block is run inside the mast and the hoisted pully/blocks and line are climbing equipment not sailing equip so do not have the same failure point/concern of an external block used for external halyards. Hope that makes sense?

I guess it depends on how you are attaching the 4:1 to the halyard before you hoist it up.

going up on an internal halyard, one knows that there is nothing at the top of the mast that can fail, causing you to fall.

now, you have added another potential point of failure.

but thinking about it.., i think what you are doing _is_ actually safer than an external halyard, because you have immediate control over the attachment of the 4:1 to the halyard.., but it might have been some time since one was able to inspect the block holding an external halyard up.

 

[Graham_Wright]

Sorry but your arguments don't hold water. If the halyard shackle wasn't outside the mast, it would be very difficult to attach the main. I never use the shackle, prefer a bowline with a couple of half hitches.

You keep quoting the dangers of using powered winch or windlass but can't cite one mast climbing accident when using either. Even allowing for the potential of accidents when using them normally, in the tens of thousands of times they're used every year for raising sails and anchors, there are very few accidents reported.

Personally, I think there are far more dangers in using climbing equipment without instruction.

Apologies again. I used "shackle" instead of "sheave". My halyards run inside the mast. If the sheave fails, the halyard drops down onto the mast raw edge. Not nice but not (immediately!) catastrophic.

I did quote one incident involving the last who lost both hands. O.k., maybe the climber was safe but she wasn't. Accidents do happen when winch handling sails and anchors but that is outside this topic which references mast climbing.

If you want to use a powered winch you will. But I, and others expressing the same sentiments (including professional advisors), advise against for sensible reasons.