Mass market boats. How seaworthy?

[Sea Devil]

Your Jenneau almost certainly got to the BVIs from the USA where they have a factory.

It really is the person/sailor not the boat.

However the charter type boats are designed for very comfortable living aboard in pleasant places. They were not designed for long distance ocean cruising.

If you are going to use a car for local runs with occaisional longer trips then you get a town car - if you are constantly doing very long trips you get a different sort of car.

I have just found it harder work in mass production boats day after day in near gale conditions than in their heavier HR - Oyster - Westerly - Moody - etc counterparts but I think many mass produced boats look great - sail well - and are a lot of boat for the dosh. Sadly they tend to not last as well as their more expensive sisters. A 20 year old HR is probably very desirable - a 20 year old Bavaria - not sure -

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[Robin]

Since when were Moodys heavy? Dumpy yes but heavy they were not.

We looked at very many boats when changing up from our Westerly 33 Ketch (now that WAS heavy - compare that to a Moody 33 or 346 etc). We looked at the big Moodys from 376s to 42s, we looked at big Westerlys (5 different Oceanlords) and several HRs and a Rival 41 and found most of them very tired and very overpriced. We actually BOUGHT a lovely 1988 Jeanneau Sun Legende 41. It is all to easy to generalise, but not always accurate, there are plenty of modern AWBs I too wouldn't want to have in survival type weather but then there are also plenty of other models too, including Moodys Westerlies HRs Malos etc - but they too all do long distance trips.

Also you are making a comparison after day after day of heavy weather delivery trips, you are not then making the same comparison for comfort at destination living (probably 80% of the time for liveaboards?), because your job is completed.



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[billmacfarlane]

Look back through this forum and you'll see plenty of info on the subject, probably more than you can read in one sitting. It's seems to be a very emotive subject as you'll soon learn, almost equal to what kind of flag to fly( I'm not kidding ). Of course production hulls are seaworthy for the type of sailing that most of their owners do, coastal mostly with a bit of offshore for the annual escape from the slave trade. I've know of lots that have sailed to the Med and some that have done the Atlantic circuit. You'll get the odd prophet of doom who maintains that a Bavaria will self destruct after 5 years and gleefully quote you an example, but by and large they are safe enough. Find some owners web sites and talk to the people who have actually used them and judge for yourself. After all you are the one that has to be convinced.

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[jonjo]

Re:\'after a little weather\'

> after a little weather none of the doors fitted

What a round the world sailor like you calls "a little weather" might be considered hell on high water by we softy English Channel coast hoppers.

Could you elaborate about the experience that dislodged the Bavaria's bulkheads?

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[jonjo]

Re: Moody 36 = Heavy?

> near gale conditions [in] heavier HR - Oyster - Westerly - Moody

I recall that in another YBW thread we discussed the key design statistics of your Moody 36 compared to my Bavaria Match 35. My conclusion was that they are equivalent in teams of a hull volume / displacement ratio.

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[tcm]

Re:\'after a little weather\'

i wd've thought the lumps of not-very-load-bearing 3/8 ply dividing up the interior space could move a bit in a big sea. But i wouldn't worry that the thing is falling to bits with the hour, really?

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[jonjo]

Re:\'after a little weather\'

Well at least I can take some solace from the implied acceptance that my Bavaria is not fitted out with chipboard

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[Peppermint]

Re:I\'ve had a bit of weather

we knocked the bulkhead out of a Nic 55. Much shoring up was required.

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[asteven221]

Thanks to everyone that replied. Being a motorboater over the past few years I have been in the MBM forum and didn't realise this subject has been discussed before. I will look back at some of the previous discussions. Like I thought might be the case, there doesn't seem to be too much in the way of hard and fast rules about these things. One man's storm is another man's fun sail, so it's difficult to get a definitive basis to make a judgement. Taking all the comments into the equation my suspicion is that there aren't any significant inherent problem with these types of hulls and they just behave differently. It would appear that many factors other than the hull shape are likey to make or break the reputation of the boat for it's behaviour in heavy seas. I can also see that the priorities of the genuine blue water sailor are different from the average cruising sailor, which significantly has nothing to do with hull shape, but rather more practical things like the abilty to cook a meal in heavy seas. The comment made that the doors wouldn't shut on a Bavaria after some heavy weather is a bit of a concern to say the least as it implies naff build quality. Funnily enough, I have noticed that the fitting of the bulkheads on Bavarias seem to need a vast amount of silicone filler to fill the gaps. Given that they use very sophisticated cutting machines, you would think that they could cut a bit of wood that fits properly. Another thing I have noticed in all of these types of boats are that these hull shapes don't offer a proper bilge and it seems like the floors would be awash if someone so much as spilt a G&T. Thanks again everyone as it's really helpfull to get peoples honest thoughts and experiences.

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[Sailfree]

You have re-opened the ongoing debate in which no-one changes their mind just repeats their own prejudices and leaves newcomers to try and make informed opinions.
A close friend and myself went from dinghy racing to larger boats at the same time. I chose mine on what was popular and could be chartered. I chose a Dufour 36. He tended to be seasick and decided he wanted a "survive anything" boat and hence chose a Rustler 36. I have sailed both and they are both good boats but different.
Manouverability - The Dufour can spin on a sixpence while the Rustler being long Keeled DOES NOT GO ASTERN in any predictable way and in marinas everyone checked their Insurance policys. My friend is a very competent sailer but decided in the end that (while frequenting other marinas as much as they did) a bow thruster for going astern was a necessity - one now fitted. In larger sizes of AWB's say 43Feet upwards they have so much windage (higher freeboard) a bow thruster is also sensible.
Cost- The Dufour is roughly half the cost of the Rustler (both new) and depreciates a larger %. The Rustler depreciates less but in cash terms because of the double initial price of the rustler it amounts to roughly the same amount of cash. Long term say 30 years I believe the Rustler will have a better resale value. The AWB's have a larger new market share and a large 2nd hand market share. The Rustler has a more selective market but nearly everthing sells if the price is right!
Sailing - The Dufour was lighter and faster on most points of sailing except when the going got rough. Beating into a sea the Rustler showed its superiority but would still be uncomfortable. Unless you really like punishment or have a macho complex there is no fun beating into a F9 on any boat in my opinion. In a Dufour 38 in the Bay of Biscay this year I did my normal thing (in a light production boat) and reefed down and motor sailed into the wind. It was no fun and I seriously wonder of any AWB's ability to beat off a lee shore in bad conditions. However I sail for pleasure and do the tourist bit in port when the weather is bad. My friend while having a boat that will cope with bad conditions also chooses to stay in port in bad weather. He sails for pleasure as well and has nothing to prove.
Space - The Dufour 36 sleeps 8 while the Rustler sleeps 5 available internal space is also in the same ratio. The respective boats ability to handle bad conditions seems the inverse of the internal space. Most say 30ft AWB's equal the space of a Rustler 36.
There are boats in between these designs but to simplify the comparison I have stuck to the extremes.
Conclusions- My friend has decided that sailing is for pleasure and would never chose to go out in bad weather and as he is not going to do serious blue water cruising he now occasionally questions whether the trade off of space for sailing ability was the right choice. He has though bought an expensive classic boat but one that will retain its value and look after them if he was ever caught out in bad weather. He was once caught out in the North Sea in an unexpected F9 and while not pleasant it justified his confidence in the boat. The Rustler took care of them. I can only speak from 7 years experience and while I have been caught out in 55kts of wind it was in the sheltered waters of the Solent. This wind only occurs when people are doing their Yachtmaster examinations! The Dufour coped but I know the Rustler would have been much better.
In reality the criteria that we both used to determine our initial choices of boat are still as relevant today and I suspect we would still buy the same boat again.
I recommend you to consider your priorities. If you are going Blue water sailing and may be caught during a 2 month sail in bad weather going for the Rustler end of the market must be more important however if you sail for pleasure and do no journeys outside a reasonably predictable weather window then you can do it for less money invested and more space in an AWB. The AWB will cope with some unexpected bad weather but you would be foolish to skirt lee shores in such conditions.
I am aware of 2 jouneys in a Dufour 38 in very bad weather and the boat managed but a Rustler would have managed a lot better. There was an "experience" article in YM about 2 years ago. I mention both the Dufour 36 & 38 as I have lots of experience of these two but I am sure their competitors are directly comparable.
All boats are a compromise and scuttlebutt is a good way of getting insight to both peoples experiences and their prejudices. Good Luck.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Sailfree on 17/11/2004 00:37 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[jonjo]

> these types of boats are that these hull shapes don't offer a proper bilge

This is a valid point but not a new issue. Take a look at a 1980 vintage Sigma 33.

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[jonjo]

Please note there is variation in AWB designs, they don't all pop out of a charter-boat oriented jelly mould.

Take a look at some of the cruiser/racer models that have entered the market over the past couple of years and you should notice designs with slimmer hulls. Keels and rudders are getting deeper as well.

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[Sea Devil]

Just wanted to say what a very good post I think Sailfree made.

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[BrendanS]

Agreed. Refreshingly honest appraisal

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[Chris_Robb]

good summary

Roger - your views were well put. Having just sold a Victory 40 in the spring, I will be replacing it with something else when I retire in 4 years (hopefully).

The original purchase of the Victory was for blue water stuff, however as the other half was definitely not keen, that died, and the new hope will be to be more coastal - ie boat in Turkey sailed for 3 months of the year. This then means a wider range of boat is available, including most of the AWB's which a year ago I would never have thought I would hear myself saying.

It is very strange when you re-appraise your requirements - would I buy another heavy weight - probably not - if I did, I would buy another Victory, as I cannot find anything that has the same combination of balanced rudder, large engine, speed undersail (not upwind!).

So why did I sell it? - in ten years I have been just about everywhere within 2 weeks cruising of the south coast. To me arrival in a new place is the main thing - not actually the passage, although the discomfort provides many an anglers tale. So with no new horizons available, I thought a break from sailing for a few years would be sensible.

Chris

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[ChrisE]

I'd agree with all of the sailfree points and add two further.

As most of you know we have a Rival 38, not known for speed, inboard size, etc, etc. but capable of rounding Cape Horn in a hurricane. We made the conscious decision to challenge ourselves and take the boat and us to Norway for a season or two and use the boat to its fullest. The upkeep is high and if we are not using it to its fullest extent then we might as well buy something that will do the 2-week cruise from The Solent and would probably put us into a smaller, cheaper to maintain camp.

Secondly, I'm not sure that we could buy an AWB because for the money we have to spend they appear soulless and would rather buy an older, perhaps less performant but more characterful boat, I think that we might even consider a wooden one. To me, it's a bit like do you live in a new house with the latest mod cons on an estate or buy some rambling heap in the country. I happen to have a MAB and SROHITC but that's not to say that that would be suit everyone.

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