Mass market boats. How seaworthy?

[asteven221]

I am thinking going back too sailing from powerboating and like the idea of buying a new Bavaria/Jeanneau/Dufour/Legend etc... i.e. the low cost (relatively) mass market kind of boat if you know what I mean. The boat will be around 40 to 45 feet and would be a sigificant step up for me in terms of size and cost from the 30 foot Moody that I used to sail. My problem is that I am not too sure how seaworthy these hull shapes are. The magazines are good at going into phenomenal detail using mathamatics which frankly bores me rigid, or they will go to the other extreme and offer very basic commment on how the hull is likely to perform. We all know that heavy displacement boats of the more older tradditional types are more seaworthy in extreme weather, but surely someone must have taken one of the new designs out and been caught out by bad weather. How did it perform? Did they live to tell the tale? I realise that this is probably a bit too much to cover in a forum but if anyone has experience of these types of boats I would be really interested to read people experiences. Incidentally the type of cruising I am talking about is around Scotland's west coast with ambitions of sailing down to the Med in a few years.

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[chrisb]

these boats are totally unseaworthy. see previous posts on this site. in fact they are a disgrace. thats why you see so few of them around

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[jeanne]

Asking if this or that boat is seaworthy is like going into a piano showroom and asking the salesman- can this piano play the Moonlight Sonata.
If you want to cross the channel, people do it in 14 ft dinghies.
If you want to circumnavigate. it has been done in an 18 ft plywood bilge keeler `Super Shrimp´.
If you want a guarantee of zero risk, take up stamp collecting.

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[Twister_Ken]

Ask Nicho about his delivery trip in a Jeanneau.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Rob_Webb]

Great question but what have you (re)started.

I predict that this one will either get a null response or hit 3 figs no problem.

Unfortunately whilst I have an opinion it is not based on fact (having no bad weather experience of the boats you mention) hence I can't contribute. But I'll watch with interest and see if any objective views do emerge.



<hr width=100% size=1>http://gulfboy.blogspot.com/

 

[tcm]

well, a fatter and more voluminous boat wil crash and bang more into a head sea, but relatively slight difference in hul shape don't really mark the sole difference betwen life and death imho. Otherwise zillions of people in modern sailing boats would die, and not a single casualty in an olde worlde boat despite setting off for a day sail in a hurricane. In extreme weather you wil have a fairly rubbish time regardless. Get decent forecasts and for a trip around scotland or just to the med you should be abl to avoid the worst.



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[Rob_Webb]

Having said earlier that I haven't got anything to contribute with experience with these boats, I should however endorse tcm's comments regarding weather. In this day and age of weather forecasting, there really is no excuse for getting caught out there with your pants down especially when coastal cruising with 2-3 day harbour-hopping. So if, like most peeps, you don't want to be out in sh!te weather whatever boat you have, the only time your heavier displacement boat will be a benefit is on a slightly lively anchorage. But if you (and your crew) have a penchant for heavy stuff then your more traditional boat will allow you to push the envelope a bit more weather-wise. Otherwise your marina-hopper is best kept in the marina when it starts howling, where it will serve it's purpose well of being a comfortable living space, until the weather returns to normal family cruising conditions.

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[webcraft]

Hundreds of these boats sail around the West Coast without coming to grief. The weather forecasts usually mean you won;t get caught out in anything too horrendous and if you do shelter is usually not far away.

Same for a trip to the Med - a boat like this will cross Biscay in under three days so you can wait for a good forecast and then day-sail the rest of the way.

So - if you want one go for it. I don't think many of them are suitable for extended offshore passages - they are simply not designed for it, and would be uncomfortable compared to more traditional or purpose-built designs. However, some are better than others, and Stingo has done alright so far in his Beneteau Oceanis 390 <font size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com>http://www.bluemoment.com</font size=1>

 

[FullCircle]

I have read about people doing blue water cruising in all manner of supposedly unsuitable boats,so I was encouraged to buy a Jean SO35 with a lifting keel. I fully intend to go all over the world with it, but, as our other knowledge endowed colleagues here have said, I will do it on good weather envelopes and pretty much hop around until I reach New Zealand. I am sure they are right about the heavy thigs, but when I had an Evolution 25 flyer, I used to cruise with a mate who had a Westerly Griffon. I invariably arrived and showered, with a beer in hand before he had tied up. Thus, my marina suitable boat will perhaps be uncomfortable at sea, but I will spend less time at sea, and more using the facility as designed in a marina.

I hope my theory is right, we shall see.

Jim
Encouraged by a couple doing it in a Jeanneau 34.2

<hr width=100% size=1>Really looking forward to the cheapo nasty Jeanneau 35 in March.

 

[Sea Devil]

I think the other posts have really said it is the person/sailor not the boat.

Having said that I have delivered other peoples brand new Bravaria - older Jeanneau and Moody down to the Med from the UK - The effect on the Bravaria was that after a little weather none of the doors fitted. The bulkheads had shifted! The Jeanneau was hard work and the Moody easy and comfortable as are all the boats of much more substantial construction and Price!!

The boats you describe Bavaria/Jeanneau/Dufour/Legend are fine for what they are intended to do - what the vast majority of boats do and give great pleasure to their owners. Sail at weekends during the summer - go off for a few long weekends to more distant 100 miles plus places and maybe 2-3 weeks annually where they will sail several hundred miles. Almost certainly never sustain much above F6 or 7 for very long... Mass produced boats are not going to sink under you, fall apart or BUT

If you want to live aboard - go blue water or long distance they will quickly become tired - they are more demanding to sail and cannot be left so easily on autopilot and will give you a harder time in a blow.

Stacks of Blue Water sailing is done in mass produced boat - driving across europe is easier - more comfortable in a large BMW Audi Jaguar than in a little town car but its doable in a little town car and in town it is excellent...


Mass produced boats look great below and are generally well deisigned and have attractive layouts. Just the job unless you are certain you are going off to live aboard for years -


<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time please visit my web site -
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing>http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing</A>

 

[Marsupial]

<Almost certainly never sustain much above F6 or 7 for very long... >

I sail Jeanneau's from 37 to 47 feet long, I must remind my Jeanneau 43 that it doesnt like F6 or 7 - come to think of it this year its seldom been THAT LOW! so why hasnt it fallen apart yet? on reflection I had better not tell it the correct wind speed I might upset it, and heck why doesnt it sail best with keel pointing up! , must remind myself to fit a jackstay on the keel.

And just HOW did the Jeanneau I chartered (along with all the other thousands of production boats) in the BVI get there? teleport? clearly they should have sunk as soon as they left Europe.

I bought my 37 6months after it was launched and got hull No 121, a year later a friend bought one and got hull 332, I think most brit boats struggle to get to hull 100 after years of manufacture - no I am not saying that Jenneau or Rustler are wrong just different thats all.

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[Peppermint]

Re: Have no fear

about the structural factors or the sailing abilities of modern yachts. Most of them. with some sensible extras, can stand up to wind and weather very well indeed. The problem comes when you take them outside of their design envelope and into say the three day passage area.

The AWB becomes tiring very quickly in prolonged heavy weather, not because it slams, not because it is wet to windward, not because your frightened it will break. The problem is that too many are un-inhabitable. No decent sea berths, large, un-wedgeable heads compartments, no wet locker and long linear galley's, a shortage of handholds and wide openspaces means that finding a dry roost, having a pee or cooking a meal become harder work than sailing the boat. Shallow bilges fire water in all directions and some fresh water systems give up the ghost at pronounced angles of heel. Low fiddles fail to hold stuff in place so it arrives on the beautifully finished sole. The sole that is by now wringing wet and a challange to Torvil & Dean.

I'm no great fan of trad boats. I believe that a properly spec'd, modern AWB can sail the oceans. You just need to know what purpose you intend to use it for before you buy it. Then you can fix the many shortcomings. One mans shortcomings are another mans advantages. The majority of sailors, who just cruise around the local area, seem to like all of the things I've mentioned above. They improve harbour living and explain why so many boats get sold.

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[cardinal_mark]

Can't coment in detail on all of the boats and size you mention, but a couple of experiences might help.

Last spring, on a Dufour 36, we covered up to 100 nm a day and for the best part this was in F6 / 7. With a crew of only 3 (one first timer jumped ship out of shere terror!) the boat handled the conditions very well and I have to say I was hugely impressed. If I could afford one, I would now have no hesitation in parting with the cash!

Conversely, during the summer we chartered a Bav 36 and spent 3 days in Gosport marina while similar weather passed. This is not to suggest that the boat wouldn't handle it just that I had less confidence after the way it performed in a F5/6 on the previous 2 days.

Mark




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[Robin]

See [http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/entry04.htm

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[Sans Bateau]

The first thing you should do, before you put this sort of question on the forum, is to ask yourself, what do I want to use the boat for? Then post the question on the forum.

So what sort of sailing do you have in mind?

Then....

Forum your views please:

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[AndrewB]

You should be so lucky!

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

<font size=1>I fully intend to go all over the world with it, but, as our other knowledge endowed colleagues here have said, I will do it on good weather envelopes and pretty much hop around until I reach New Zealand. .... Thus, my marina suitable boat will perhaps be uncomfortable at sea, but I will spend less time at sea, and more using the facility as designed in a marina. </font size=1>

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The "good weather envelopes" are only statistical probabilities. Almost everyone who goes long distance cruising plans to avoid bad weather, but sooner or later it catches up with many. And my experience is that when it does happen, you will find yourself willing to trade every last cent of "marina designed facility" for just one scrap of extra seaworthiness. A capable yacht that will look after itself in a blow is a joy, specially if you are short-handed.

IMHO

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[FullCircle]

Re: You should be so lucky!

AndrewB,
I don't doubt your sagacity or wisdom, I merely point out that I am not hairy chested about setting out in the lower Southern Oceans in the depths of winter. I expect to get caught out, it happens all the time now, and the boat will be as prepared as possible for it in safety terms. However, it would be interesting if a poll of sea days (nowhere near land) against days spent at anchor or in a marina is taken for those liveaboards. I intend to wander the world at my own pace, usually somewhere near a land mass, for a good number of years. The passage making is both fun and serious, but I want to meet the indiginous populations wherever I go, and live amongst them for long periods between movements.


<hr width=100% size=1>Really looking forward to the cheapo nasty Jeanneau 35 in March.

 

[tcm]

Re: You should be so lucky!

80 days a year was about the number in sell up and sail.

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[Mirelle]

curmudgeonly owner of ancient gaff cutter says...

Probably OK.

Lots of these boats do that sort of sailing. A few suffer structural damage, most don't.

But, really, it's all in the mind. Very few of us get really "pasted" in heavy weather.

So the question is - are you going to worry about it? If yes, get a different sort of boat.

If coming from powerboating, then, in the unlikely event that your powerboat is something like a Silver, you probably would be happier in a more old fashioned type of sailing boat. If your powerboat is a modern high performance one then you would probably be bored to tears in a "heavy" and would be better off in an AWB (for one thing, they motor pretty well!)

Personally, I don't care for AWBs and I prefer the sort of boat that some others would not be seen dead in, but that's just me, and who am I to preach?

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mirelle on 15/11/2004 15:56 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[FullCircle]

Re: curmudgeonly owner of ancient gaff cutter says...

Mirelle,
I prefer your sort of boat too, but my Uncle Bobs Dauntless put me off for life!!! Having said that, its very therapeutic in the closed season to bimble around on old boats. Going to miss not having a boat to restore this winter.

<hr width=100% size=1>Really looking forward to the cheapo nasty Jeanneau 35 in March.