marine surveying

Sorry, should have explained a more fully! the RCD is the Recreational Craft Directive, which effectively licences every boat out there, the new implementation they want to make europe wide boils down to Licencing for every craft, but to be licenced it has to be inspected, and a licence then issued with certain conditions attached to it, all based on I suppose an 'MOT' for the boat, suitability, safety equipment, max permitted hp, permitted range, max persons on board, hull condition, seaworthiness, and so on


A full Crock of EU shite in other words. portugal have something similar already among others (or so I'm led to believe).

heard of it through a press release a couple of weeks ago from a manufacturer

I'll try find the link
 
The release you saw will be interesting if you can find it. I don't see the RCD as a licence system but more like the aeons old constructions and use regulations for cars which is the way I thought it was applied, mind I'm no expert as I'd rather watch paint dry while boiling my head and sticking needles in my eyes than read through the RCD legislation.

Having said that it's perhaps no bad thing that manufacturers have to adhere to certain responsibilities like stability, strength and fire prevention and seaworthiness when they put a product on the market as it curbs the wilder excesses of the marketing boyos who have never been on a boat and think of them as floating caravans, mind you I think of some of the modern stuff like that as well.

I wasn't aware that the RCD went into areas such as safety equipment carried which would be more like a licencing system but I can't see that happening logistically for many years, if ever, thank heaven.
 
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My experience of surveyors over the last 20 years is that good ones are getting few and far between, and the freshly qualified surveyors, when it comes to wooden vessels, don't know their arse from their elbow. Just an observation you understand.

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......which is why I continued on from my surveying course to do the 47 week wooden boat building course. I would still be very reluctant to introduce myself as either a surveyor or a boatbuilder. Fortunately my aspirations were very limited and I just wanted to understand more.

There are dodgy characters in every industry and surveying is no exception. My advice to any potential boat purchaser - particularly in wood - is to check the surveyors credentials very carefully. In principle, if a surveyor knows his way around wood, that is a good sign.

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How do you check credentials ? I'm a surveyor - have been for years - so what am I going to show you ? My P&I cover ? My Biz card ? My Saudi Govt Licence ? My Russian River / Sea Surveyors Licence ? My Estonian / Latvian Company Registration and Company Charters ?

I ask because I have no formal piece of paper to show a course or examination completed - it's an open world out there for anyone to say they are surveyor. I'm lucky that I grew up around boat-yards with wooden boats being built and also GRP etc. Repairs, renovations ... shaping grown knees to fit exact etc. So I have a knowledge that would be difficult for any course to teach. How do I convey that to you ?

So you believe me ? Are you sure ? There's many out there in all walks of life who can cut it verbally impressing and get work - but work doesn't live up to verbals. But too late - fee's already due.

I think you're getting my point now ... a) what is needed to convince you have the right person ?, b) papers are not the be all and end all of knowledge, c) practical experience over years is also not the answer as new situations crop up all the time.

I pride myself that I am willing to learn from each new experience, from the client as well as often he can relate things happened to his boat that points to something or explains a finding ...

My advice to anyone on this work - many cannot sustain it as prime occupation. But it is time consuming, it is interesting and you meet some awful and very good people along the way. It was usually a second line for many boat yard people to supplement income. I know of many who have given up yacht surveying as I did - it just didn't pay.

Take average salary you need. Add anything up to 60K or thereabouts pa for Insurance - maybe unfair as mine is substantial and covers commercial as well. Now divide that lot by time you expect to work and convert to hours per boat. Average boat say 6 - 8 hrs + report writing and proofing. Where's the clients willing to pay the rates ?

And people ask me to go back ? My discounted rate now per hour is over 100 pounds commercial + expenses. For that I do not enjoy a fab salary. I now spend most time behind a desk running a whole bunch of Inspectors / Surveyors instead.
 
RCD does not licence any boat.

RCD is a way of classifying a boats water or use. There is no restriction or licence condition with it that stops you using the boat in whatever way you wish.

EU wishes to expand some countries Inspection of craft to others who do not presently inspect.

My boat is safe and I have no worries about crossing open water with her. But I keep her on UK flag. Why ? Because I can equip her as I determine as necessary. If I put her on Latvian register I would have to carry such daft quantities of safety and other gear unrelated to actual use ....
 
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I am still amazed by people who base their decision to buy a £100,000 boat on the expertise of the cheapest person they can find.

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That I agree with and is part of the reason I gave up yachts.

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Unfortunately, my experience is that about 70% of enquirers just want to know how much a survey will cost and how quickly I can do it.

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Human nature ? We all want to know how much and how long .. I know I wouldn't employ anyone without costing first.

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This approach opens the door for those who have no qualifications, are not members of an accredited association..

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Whoa neddie ! Hold on a mo ... that I cannot totally agree with because most of the really good surveyors I know are NOT "qualified by paper" and certainly most refuse to join the "advertised" association for various reasons.

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and carry no insurance,

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Ok that's bad ! but I remember when I first took PI cover and was accused of protecting my posterior and therefore not confident in my work ! Later people started demanding it ...

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and can thus undercut the more professional surveyors.

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I was accused of this by a well known group who say they are the only pro's. Sorry but my pricing was based on fair and reasonable rates without dictate from an Association. When I was approached to join said group - first I was told ... "Well of course you'll have to up your rates to meet ours .. " I refused based on I had a loyal following of clients and they referred me to others - I could imagine what would happen if I charged such rates.
But of course later on I was victim of back-room boys who did it as beer-money. Not to say that a lot of them didn't do a good job.... most did a fine job.

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.... my advice would be to ask specifically what experience the surveyor has of the particular make/design, or the construction method if out-of-the-ordinary. And say that you are interested in coming along at some point during the day (even if you're not able to), so would like to know when he will be there:

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Absolutely ... in fact I used to insist that client attended with me as long as possible so I could talk him through the boat. That gives more than any report on paper can.

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a good surveyor will be fully occupied all day on a wooden 32 footer. I wouldn’t be happy with a pre-purchase survey which took less than an hour for every 5’ LOA.

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Maybe, think it depends on boat and age etc. and how used etc.

But as I said elsewhere due to general expectancy of clients - I packed it in as my bread and butter developed on larger marine matters. I just assist people now where I humbly can. And have odd laugh on here / other places with some wind-ups !!

For anyone employing a Surveyor - beware the know it all, quotes member of this and that association and one who flashes papers ... one thing I instill into all my inspectors - each day you learn something new. Each job - listen to around you. Each item look and look again - if you don't understand why - ask. We don't know all the answers, we are always learning. The real experienced is the one who realises what he DOES NOT know.

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Thank you for reading ... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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One thing I instill into all my inspectors - each day you learn something new. Each job - listen to around you. Each item look and look again - if you don't understand why - ask. We don't know all the answers, we are always learning. The real experienced is the one who realises what he DOES NOT know.

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Couldn't agree more. Some of the best surveys I've done were ones where my first sight of the boat was accompanied by the thought "Crikey, where the hell do I start" (and yes, pointy end is as good a place as any!). The most dangerous thing for a surveyor is to get bored. If you ever start thinking "ho-hum, yet another BenBavJen", then it's time to give yourself a kick up the arse.

I can't think of another profession where you are expected to risk two months wages every time you step out the door (even with insurance). I find that thought gives me the requisite twitch of anxiety when I start a job.

You are lucky in having a team, with whom to bounce ideas and knowledge around: I find yacht surveying quite lonely, and value the "safety net" of membership of an organisation (not the "we're the only pros one"!) so that I can get suggestions and answers to problems. As for "paper qualifications" you are quite right: I had meant to write "experience /qualifications"(note experience first).
 
Before the advent of digi cameras ... well they were around but way too expensive - I used a dictaphone and sketch pad.
My system was to walk the hull on ground first ... metering topsides and under hull. Tapping and testing areas ...
Once that was done ... move to keel joints, keel splay, rudder and stock, prop and shaft.
Once that was done then onto deck and even though many clients want to get to cockpit and cabin - I would say - Bow first and we work back port side first then stbd ....
Only then did I then start into cockpit, lockers and final was the cabin and fittings.
Of course with advent of digi cameras - that was wonderful - you could really build up a good overall picture of the boat not only for own memory and report - but also for illustration of damages / condition etc.

I really hated later builds with mouldings covering vital areas ... hidden chainplate fastenings, pokey holes to get to keel fastenings ... always reminded me of cars with wiring looms fed through sills that no-one could get at !

I long ago learnt to stop talking about certain boats I found as horror stories ... and get on with boat in hand !

My real joy was seeing owners solutions to stowage and additions that were simple but effective. A really excellent example of a Kestrel, clinker job ... anyone who knows them also knows they are not a volume boat and stowage is at a premium. The guy had rigged up netting so well it really looked part of the boat but everything he needed was to hand.
I've seen boats where an alternative wash-board stowing away nicely has a pump or other item fitted to it - so drop into slot and bingo ...
Bilge pump with branch pipe of that in event of failure - stick into loo bowl and use loo to empty bilges ...

Bouncing ideas of ? Yachts are not really on our list anymore ... what with the fuel work and shipping ... we've had to reduce our range. Sad - but necessary. If Latvia and Baltics develop more in yachting - which is sure to happen - then we will reconsider. We are listed by Brokers / Insurance etc. out here but it's a limited market.
 
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