"Marine" spec gas regulator, or ebay cheapy?

[Nicholas123]

Using a high pressure gauge is a very crude way of performing a soundness test and not without pitfalls. More correctly it should be carried out without the bottle and regulator being connected by pressurising the system with air to 70mb, ie well above the normal operating pressure, and monitoring for pressure loss with a sensitive U tube manometer or the equivalent.

A far more satisfactory way for the individual to test an lpg system is by installing an Alde bubble leak detector http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=53

60 seconds is then all the time it takes to check the system . It can easily be done every time the gas is turned on if desired.

Nonsense & unnecessary scaremongering.

 

[sailorman]

Last year, my surveyor requested a 'Gas safe' check and the insurance company echoed that. The 'Gas safe' inspector was quite happy with the cheap (but in-date) regulator and issued the certificate.

if the"surveyor" asks ( to cover his ass & to "fluff-out " the report ) then the ins are going to insist arn t they

 

[Nicholas123]

Nick Vass Omega Yacht Services in United Kingdom.
12 December 2014 ·
Gas Regulators on Yachts
Thanks to my pal Rog Powell who helped me answer this FAQ
Question
I am currently refurbishing a classic GRP sailing yacht that I intend to sail out of Poole Harbour to the IOW, and hopefully further afield – eg, Dartmouth & Salcombe where I started boating with my father in the 1970’s.
Right now I am in the process of installing a high spec two burner gas cooker into the boat using the very useful Boat Safety Scheme document as a guide prior to having the installation inspected by a registered marine gas engineer. However, the question of LPG gas regulators has arisen. All the boats (motor and sail) near mine in the marina that I have looked at use typical caravan style bottle top regulators available for about £10.00. Having previously worked in the gas detection industry I was surprised to find this style of regulator in common use on sailing yachts as I am aware that liquid gas can get past the internal diaphragm and over pressure the cooker feed pipe if the gas bottle is moved around enough for liquid gas to cover the bottles neck.
Further investigation revealed that (I believe) I require a BS EN 12864 - Annex M (now superseded by EN 16129:2013 Annex M) compliant regulator on my yacht on the basis I intend to put to sea in this boat. Such a regulator is designed with an integral over pressure valve to be able to safely deal with liquified gas getting into the cooker feed pipe, and is made of corrosion resistant material.
What has surprised me is that the Boat Safety Scheme guide does not advise which specification regulator to use. Nor as far as I am aware (I don’t have the latest revision as it’s a costly document) the definitive document: BS EN 10239 Small Craft Liquified Gas installations does not define a BS EN 12864 –Annex M compliant gas regulator for a boat used in the marine environment either. This is a worrying omission in my view.
Judging by the number of boats near me without a marine grade gas regulator fitted, and many are newish boats (under ten years old) I’d wager the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) is probably equally as lax in this regard, although I have not seen a copy so don’t know that for sure. I can only report what my own eyes are seeing on modern boats near mine which is my primary concern as even if the ISO STD does define which regulator to use, obviously this information is not getting through to boat owners and users.
On a more positive note, the relevant electrical installation standard ISO 13297 and the Boat Safety Scheme electrical installation guides appear comprehensive and detailed. Some of the “grey” areas and sensitive issues such as earth bonding (or not) for shore power taken aboard are not shied away from. The pro’s and cons are discussed re: trade off between galvanic corrosion and safety with a defined conclusion being reached and a recommendation given. Exactly what is required for people like me wanting to “do the right thing” and seeking guidance.
Nick, my question is twofold, do I need a BS EN 12864 – Annex M gas regulator fitted or not & would my boat pass the gas safety inspection with a caravan style regulator fitted?
Will my insurance be invalidated if I do what everybody else does (including newer builds from my observations) and fit a low cost simple caravan regulator?
In addition; does the ISO standard such as BS EN 10239 that defines gas installations on small craft make reference to the associated standard for marine gas regulators (ie, BS EN 12864 - Annex M -now superseded by EN 16129:2013 Annex M)? If not why would this be so?
The average boat owner would have no reason to question either the Boat Safety Scheme nor the ISO standards unless they had worked in the pressurised gas world like myself (detection in my case) and realised something was not adding up. This is borne out by the fact marine regulators seem to be very rarely used in my local area anyway despite any number of owners advising they have had their boats surveyed and passed for insurance purposes.
To my mind the BSS Gas Installation guide and ISO 10239 should be promoting best practice for gas regulators fitted to sea going vessels and detailing any special requirements for sailing yachts.
Your comments and advice welcomed.
Regards
Michael Turner
Answer
Firstly; BS EN ISO 12864 Annex M is withdrawn and been replaced by BS EN 16129:2013 Annex M which is similar with regards to LPG Regulators used on seawater boats. LPG regulators are different to caravan/general purpose regulators in two specific areas (integral over pressure relief valve and high corrosion resistance )for a reason. Namely, the more arduous demands of the marine environment itself. Potential corrosion issues are well understood by many of us, however the need for gas regulators with an over pressure relief valve may be less understood by yacht owners.
Sailing yachts can readily incline to angles sufficient to cause high pressure liquid gas to slosh around and breach the gas regulator causing an over pressure condition within the low pressure cooker feed pipe. Over pressure in the low pressure feed pipe to the cooker can cause gas to breach & leak past seals to either; collect in the bilges, or unintentionally ignite at or near the source of the leak itself (eg, cooker control knob). Both conditions are extremely hazardous and potentially life threatening, not to mention invariably expensive to put right even if caught in time.
For practical purposes there would be no justifiable reason for a sailing yacht fitted with an LPG system as described above to go to sea with anything other than a BS EN ISO 16129 Annex M compliant gas regulator correctly installed and fitted.
Such a regulator will provide longevity with respect to corrosion and a safe route away from the sailing yacht (via a properly vented gas locker) for any gas discharged by the regulators over pressure relief valve.
In terms of the Boat Safety Scheme guide and the BS EN 10239 LPG installation standard, it might be that these documents are possibly lacking in the area of BS EN ISO 16129 Annex M regulators and there use/need on sailing yachts. It is possible these documents may not be promoting best practice if this is so. However this is no justification to doing anything other than the “right thing” on your boat, which in your case Roger is to correctly install a BS EN ISO 16129 Annex M gas regulator based on your intended use of your sailing yacht at sea.
With regards to insurance, I suggest you discuss with your insurers, however, as the correct BS EN ISO 16129 Annex M marine gas regulators are available for under £50 it would be more sensible to fit the correct regulator for your needs.
Nick Vass

Clearly you are in the business of scaremongering & are an 'expert' playing on peoples fears.Quite sickening.

Compared to all the other accidents encountered in boating the accidents caused by gas are insignificant.

 

[sailorman]

Clearly you are in the business of scaremongering & are an 'expert' playing on peoples fears.Quite sickening.

Nick was a project manager with Oyster Yachts, so was more concerned with Coded & charter boat building. Quite different to private boating

 

[pvb]

Compared to all the other accidents encountered in boating accidents caused by gas are insignificant.

This is very true, and many people incorrectly view LPG installations on boats as being inherently dangerous. I suppose it's good for the makers of gas detectors, bubble testers, "marine" regulators, etc, but for the vast majority of people a simple, properly-installed system will be completely safe.

 

[Nicholas123]

Nick was a project manager with Oyster Yachts, so was more concerned with Coded & charter boat building. Quite different to private boating

I can understand the need for full proof systems where inexperienced paying customers are concerned but not this sort of playing on ordinary peoples fears.

 

[rob2]

Interesting that those in the industry who are (perhaps rightly) promoting the schedule M regulators never mention that few of these models have been produced yet several of those fail more frequently than the cheap, well established "caravan" version. Indeed talking of product recalls, did anyone else find it curious that a "marine" regulator has on its label the instruction to protect it from rain? No winder they don't always work!

In practice, if a boat is heeling enough to put liquid gas through the regulator, you certainly wouldn't be cooking!

Rob.

 

[sailorman]

Interesting that those in the industry who are (perhaps rightly) promoting the schedule M regulators never mention that few of these models have been produced yet several of those fail more frequently than the cheap, well established "caravan" version. Indeed talking of product recalls, did anyone else find it curious that a "marine" regulator has on its label the instruction to protect it from rain? No winder they don't always work!

In practice, if a boat is heeling enough to put liquid gas through the regulator, you certainly wouldn't be cooking!

Rob.

our gas is always off at the bottle when not in use

 

[VicS]

....................
did anyone else find it curious that a "marine" regulator has on its label the instruction to protect it from rain?

Rob.

Not particularly .
Its to prevent water getting into the space above the diaphragm via the vent although the components of an Annex M regulator above the diaphragm are corrosion resistant unlike those of a standard regulator

 

[NormanS]

My cheap caravan type regulator is, along with two gas bottles, in a locker accessed with a flush hatch on the side deck. The hatch is by no means waterproof, so the regulator gets wet. It would seem therefore that I cannot use the "marine" type regulators, if they are to be kept out of the rain.

Probably better to use a cheap one, and replace it now and then, rather than use an expensive one that is unsuited to the prevailing environment.

 

[sailorman]

My cheap caravan type regulator is, along with two gas bottles, in a locker accessed with a flush hatch on the side deck. The hatch is by no means waterproof, so the regulator gets wet. It would seem therefore that I cannot use the "marine" type regulators, if they are to be kept out of the rain.

Probably better to use a cheap one, and replace it now and then, rather than use an expensive one that is unsuited to the prevailing environment.

all good & sensible BUT your not a "qualified" surveyor covering his rear end are you

 

[NormanS]

all good & sensible BUT your not a "qualified" surveyor covering his rear end are you

Certainly not. But if a "qualified" surveyor suggested that I used a piece of equipment, unsuited to the conditions in which it was to be used, I might reasonably question his/her "qualifications".

 

[sailorman]

Certainly not. But if a "qualified" surveyor suggested that I used a piece of equipment, unsuited to the conditions in which it was to be used, I might reasonably question his/her "qualifications".

And that is the rub.
Once its in his report, the insurers can only comply to the request

 

[rob2]

Yes, I understand the problems but if a piece of kit is sold specifically for use in a marine environment it should be able to handle a lesser environment! Otherwise, it is better to buy cheap and replace regularly as the one costing ten times as much (minimum) is probably fubared before the cheapy one. It' rather like all the battery manufacturers selling new technology at ten times the price to increase longevity by maybe 20% - it'a no brainer, don't waste your hard earned on stuff that offers no real advantage.

Rob.

 

[philwebb]

I use camping gaz bottles with a camping gaz regulator. Never had any problem with the reg, changed it once in 20 years.
I have never seen a "marine spec" camping gaz reg, so I suppose a lot of the charter boats are using the same ones without any problem.
I don't like the requirement to use a bulkhead fitting with a compression joint on either side. I can't see the reasoning behind this requirement. I think that adds two joints that can leak. I would much rather the pipe passed through a grommet. If you look at the fuel pipe on a car, it's probably all one piece up to the filter, with grommets to prevent chafe. The gas regs for buildings don't allow compression joints where they can't be inspected easily and pipes through walls are sleeved to allow for movement.

 

[Keith-i]

did anyone else find it curious that a "marine" regulator has on its label the instruction to protect it from rain?

Rob.

I wonder what the spec on a caravan regulator says about keeping it away from rain/moisture?

 

[VicS]

The only places you need a bulkhead fitting are the exit from the gas locker , to preserve the integrity of a watertight bulkhead or if the pipe cannot be adequately protected from chafe eg by a grommet. In many/ most cases that probably means only at the gas locker exit.

Even when a bulkhead fitting is needed the central land can be bored out thereby allowing an uncut pipe to pass through the fitting. Strictly then only one of the compression joints need be utilised but probably best to use both or some DH of a surveyor will criticise it.

 

[VicS]

I wonder what the spec on a caravan regulator says about keeping it away from rain/moisture?

For the same reason they probably should also not be exposed to the rain.......... even moreso if they dont have corrosion resistant internals above the diaphragm .. but I cant say Ive seen any such stipulation either on them on in any (non existant) instructions

 

[NormanS]

And that is the rub.
Once its in his report, the insurers can only comply to the request

I would like to think that even insurance companies might be willing to accept logic.

 

[Nicholas123]

Not particularly .
Its to prevent water getting into the space above the diaphragm via the vent although the components of an Annex M regulator above the diaphragm are corrosion resistant unlike those of a standard regulator

OH honestly-just turn the regulator so that the vent hole is downwards-it is very rare that water runs up hill