Marine engines and white road diesel

[Latestarter1]

I have just had my Freelander TD4 with 121000 miles on the clock in to get a fuel problem sorted at a specialist diesel injection company. They refurbed the HP pump as the seals were shot. When asked if supermarket fuel with 15% bio could have been the cause the were non-committal but didn't rule it out. When asked about using road fuel in general in an old marine diesel they said it would cope far better than a modern engine with a common rail setup as these were designed to run on pure diesel whereas the old plodder would run on almost anything.

This thread appears to have degenerated in anecdotal 'dock talk' Freelander TD4 is actually BMW M47 diesel engine and has Bosch CP3 pump which is a well proven unit.

See my earlier posting regarding Bosch and the line drawn in the sand 7% regarding use of FAME in fuels. Normal fuel from supermarkets contains around 3% FAME therefore should have zero impact on pump durability. If you have been obtaining supplies of B15 then potential damage is clearly down to your choice of such fuels.

FAME alone is not the issue, it is the presence of water together with FAME which produces highly damaging seal degredation. Typical elastomers of FKM (Fluorocarbon) and FVMQ (Fluorosilicone) were deemed compatible with the selected biofuels. The Bosch CP3 fuel lubricated pump has proved since early development to be more durable than we expected and modern lighter fuels were part of development programs. Initial durability of 18/20,000 hr target was met, and with gradual material improvements, in excess of 22,000 hours appears to be realistic duability.

The big issue of FAME and water, non reversible breakdown of FKM and FVMQ in the sealing compounds and leads to rapid failure. If people WANT to screw around with these fuels then more frequent fuel filter maintainence is required and perhaps addition of filters with coalecing media is required.

Remember ALL fuel potentally contains FAME, since there was major contamination of aviation fuel in 2009 the industry accepted that in practice low levels of FAME exists even in fuels claimed to be FAME free due to contamination at the mixing manifolds in the refinery.

Other than constant moans and groans boaters just need to take their fuel filteraton systems more seriously. The poster complaining about glassfibre tank contamination surely must be aware that FAME loosens years of accumulated crud on the tank bottom? Less well known is the reaction of FAME and water creating Hydrofluoric acid, which attacks both polyester and stainless steel. Not dramatic but still an ever present threat.

 

[Tomahawk]

I was thinking of introducing the white road diesel progressively in proportion rather than in one go to get the engine used to the idea

Does that sound like a goodplan?

)

I have a 3gm series engine..Remember they are basically a derritive of the engine in a mini excavator. I will be changing to white on the continent later this Year.... I do not plan anything special......

On a wider note there is no red fuel in Portugal even for heavy plant and fishing boats... Hence everything runs on white and there is still an operating fishing fleet and heavy plant industry.. That is when you can get the operator to do some work???

 

[ukmctc]

Even the oldesr diesel engine will run on white diesel or red as will the newest, I'm not sure what the fuss is about?

 

[Latestarter1]

I have a 3gm series engine..Remember they are basically a derritive of the engine in a mini excavator. I will be changing to white on the continent later this Year.... I do not plan anything special......

On a wider note there is no red fuel in Portugal even for heavy plant and fishing boats... Hence everything runs on white and there is still an operating fishing fleet and heavy plant industry.. That is when you can get the operator to do some work???

White or red NO DIFFERENT Directive 2009/30/EC saw to all that. From 1/1/2011 NRMM has to use to use no greater than 10 ppm virtually sulphur free fuel, same standard a road fuel has been for some time.

When is the penny going to drop?

 

[A1Sailor]

White or red NO DIFFERENT Directive 2009/30/EC saw to all that. From 1/1/2011 NRMM has to use to use no greater than 10 ppm virtually sulphur free fuel, same standard a road fuel has been for some time.

When is the penny going to drop?

Latestarter, you are more knowledgeable than many of us...
How do you manage the fuel system in your boat? Red or white? Where from?
Tank full most of the time? What filters? What kind of engine do you have?
Do you drain your tank at the end of the season? Or just keep it full? Do you use any anti-bug additives? Or are they a waste of time?

Many Thanks,


A1

 

[blackbeard]

Short of the local fuel pontoon changing over to FAME-free white, the preferred solution (not too bothered about cost, I doubt if my 1GM10 uses more than 50 litres/year), I intend to:

just use road diesel and keep the tank well topped up, adding Fuel Set or whatever if enough people tell me I should. Tank is only 25 litres anyway so that's equivalent to something like 2 fuel changes/year, so I hope - hope - that deterioration in storage won't be an issue.

And check the water/fuel separator occasionally, and carry spare filters.

 

[Latestarter1]

Latestarter, you are more knowledgeable than many of us...
How do you manage the fuel system in your boat? Red or white? Where from?
Tank full most of the time? What filters? What kind of engine do you have?
Do you drain your tank at the end of the season? Or just keep it full? Do you use any anti-bug additives? Or are they a waste of time?

Many Thanks,


A1

#1 Red, last time from fuel barge in Dartmouth. My capacity 75 gallons.

#2 Always top off tanks whenever I can, particulary when leaving for some time.

#3 A Racor 1000 MA (over large but came free with a job and no such thing as too much filteration, 10 micron filter element and 'Designated Engineer' restriction gauge. Tamed pesky Racor with Fleetguard FF 5013 as my goalkeeper, 20 mic BETA rating, a flow rate of 100 GPH clean ½" Hg pressure drop, has a built-in water drain, has no plastic bowls to leak or discolor. On engine (last chance filter Fleetguard FF 1251) FF 5013 about £15 inc and I purchase my Racor filter elements from U.S. $12.50 per case (12) plus about $10 shipping and handling. Small FF 1251 last chance is the most expensive £20 inc, however only ever changed it once. Cut the old filter open and it was spotless inside.

#4 Engine Cummins B315. Additives no. I have considered re-plumbing my system with small low voltage slurry pump I have in order that I can polish my own fuel should I hit contamination issues. Have played with driving the slurry pump with a solar cell, in order that fuel is always on the move when I am away from the boat, all a bit pie in the sky, and I must get a life!

Hope this helps

 

[Latestarter1]

Short of the local fuel pontoon changing over to FAME-free white, the preferred solution (not too bothered about cost, I doubt if my 1GM10 uses more than 50 litres/year), I intend to:

just use road diesel and keep the tank well topped up, adding Fuel Set or whatever if enough people tell me I should. Tank is only 25 litres anyway so that's equivalent to something like 2 fuel changes/year, so I hope - hope - that deterioration in storage won't be an issue.

And check the water/fuel separator occasionally, and carry spare filters.

Where are you going to source FAME free white??

 

[Bobobolinsky]

Maby,

I beg to differ.

Moderm marine engines and marinisations of modern vehicle and plant engines are unlikely to be affected as they were probably designed with low sulphur diesel (if not FAME) usage in mind.

The concern is mainly with old engines (say 30 years +) that were designed long before low sulphur diesel and FAME existed.

The fame makes up for the reduced lubricity of the low sulphur.
The older engines could quite easily run on 100% Fame, or even straight cooking oil. It really is the storage conditions and making bugs. If you only use a few litres a year, why not use an outboard tank instead of a fixed tank. and then finish off the tank in the car

 

[blackbeard]

Where are you going to source FAME free white??

Well, that's the problem of course. One of several possibilities, I'm led to understand from various posts on this topic, is that yacht fuel outlets might be able to get and sell FAME-free white diesel (which would pay full duty of course). I'm only repeating what I have been told! Whether they would do so, of course, is another matter, since many customers would still like to fill up with red at 60/40 or whatever, and it might not be economic to stock two kinds of diesel.

We shall see. There seems to be a cloud of political uncertainty.

My question is really: if the only practical source of white is ordinary forecourt road diesel with added FAME (which we might be obliged to do if we wish to go to another EU country), would the FAME cause problems if the tank is effectively refilled a few times each year? Would deterioration in storage become a major problem in such a case? If it would, then it would appear that we can't go abroad to other EU countries, or at least only to those which take a sensible pragmatic view of contents of fuel tanks. If it wouldn't then I can just fill up with road diesel, in the hope that the tank contents will eventually - eventually - become clear and I can go where I like.

None of this will be of much help to those with large fuel tanks holding enough fuel for several year's use.

On a slight tangent. AFAICS Italy, and maybe some other EU countries, have white diesel with two prices - one for fishing boats and one for yachts. Presumably it works for them - why not for us?

 

[Latestarter1]

The fame makes up for the reduced lubricity of the low sulphur.

Absolutely untrue....

 

[SimonJ]

Quote:
"Other than constant moans and groans boaters just need to take their fuel filteraton systems more seriously. The poster complaining about glassfibre tank contamination surely must be aware that FAME loosens years of accumulated crud on the tank bottom? Less well known is the reaction of FAME and water creating Hydrofluoric acid, which attacks both polyester and stainless steel. Not dramatic but still an ever present threat."

If you are talking about the GRP tank breakdown issue and subsequent frequent filter blockage when using Spanish (Majorca) sourced marine supplied dieso, I should tell you that prior to the problem occurring the tanks had been opened , inspected and cleaned. No build up of anything was there or remained.
The particulate blocking the filters was a clear clean looking jelly and not a MBG product. The surface of the fuel had a constant foam of again jelly like consistency days later.
I assume this is the same effect which is well recorded in USA after use of gasolene in GRP tanks - a major ongoing issue.