st599
Well-Known Member
So you're saying that you have empirical evidence non-FAME diesel doesn't affect old diesel engines.
Doesn't answer the question placed.
Marine engines and white road diesel
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So you're saying that you have empirical evidence non-FAME diesel doesn't affect old diesel engines.
Doesn't answer the question placed.
Momac
Well-Known Member
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Yanmar 3YM20 for 1620hrs.
Can't understand all this hype about red diesel - most boats have been running for the last 8 years on road diesel except in the UK, which makes them the minority.
Can't understand all this hype about red diesel - most boats have been running for the last 8 years on road diesel except in the UK, which makes them the minority.
elton
Well-Known Member
Might be more use to hear from anyone who's actually suffered any engine problems they can directly attribute to white diesel. I'd wager there are none.
wizard
Well-Known Member
That was what I was hoping the result of this post would be.
If there are seal and crud release problems I would have thought that they would have shown up shortly after the Fame percentage went up recently.
Seah0rse
Well-Known Member
Mazda or Ford?
Agree. As far as I know, mine is a 50 year old marinised Tractor engine made by Ford, marinised by Parsons and still reliable and going strong. It has lasted a damn site longer than my wife's hi teck car and mine a Rx 8 (both about 6 years old and bugg.ered. Both Mazdas by the way... No connection, just satisfied/unsatisfied customer as appropriate!!!!!
Agree. As far as I know, mine is a 50 year old marinised Tractor engine made by Ford, marinised by Parsons and still reliable and going strong. It has lasted a damn site longer than my wife's hi teck car and mine a Rx 8 (both about 6 years old and bugg.ered. Both Mazdas by the way... No connection, just satisfied/unsatisfied customer as appropriate!!!!!
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Interestingly in the Bongo community they only see the crud release problem when they add 50% veggie oil to already FAMEd diesel. Perhaps the 5% and now 7% do not have that much effect.
haydude
Well-Known Member
My Volvo Penta D2-55 run 750 hours since new on white diesel because in the Mediterranean there is no alternative. The engine now has done another 100h on red diesel and still runs like a dream.
jwilson
Well-Known Member
Biodiesel - FAME - has only relatively recently been added to road diesel in any quantity, though it started around 2000 with very low levels, which have since increased, I believe to about 5% in most fuel stations.
Until 2008 red diesel contained no FAME, but since then up to 7% has been allowed, though not all red diesel does contain this much, or any.
In 2000 a group of diesel injector equipment manufacturers including Bosch issued a statement about FAME, which included :
"During extensive field trials conducted by the FIE Manufacturers in collaboration with end-users, the following injection equipment and engine problems have been identified as being caused by these fuel characteristics:-
- Corrosion of FIE components. - Elastomeric seal failures
- Low pressure fuel system blockage - Fuel injector spray hole blockage
- Increased dilution and polymerisation of engine sump oil
- Pump seizures due to high fuel viscosity at low temperatures
- Increased injection pressure"
From the point of view of yacht users, the statement also said "The incidence of these effects is likely to be increased when the engine is in irregular use, in applications such as stand-by generator units, automatic plant and seasonally used vehicles". They could well have added yachts.....
A copy of the full document is at http://www.isuzuengines.com/pdf/FIE_FAME_Position.pdf - reading it you would not want bio-diesel in the tank of a
yacht where a tankful of fuel might last two years usage.
Quite apart from the potential of FAME to attack engine components, it is MUCH more likely to create ideal conditions for "diesel bug". http://www.conidia.com/downloads/diesel-bug-the-basics.pdf is a good reference to the subject.
The problems of yacht usage are very different to road usage. Most diesel cars and trucks are bought as diesels specifically for high-mileage use. It's rare that my car's diesel tank is not refilled from near empty at least every fortnight. On a grossly underpowered previous yacht I once put no diesel in the tank for 4 years, though I now use rather more fuel with a modern diesel, and less time to sail. Also I now normally keep the tank full if possible.
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
With all due respect - but that was a 'long' time ago.
The world - engines and FAME - have moved on since then.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Strange, I know, but many pre-millenium engines are still out there, plodding away, for a few hours every year.
Lundylad
Well-Known Member
Classic cars
Not a lot to add to the white, red debate so the thought of using white diesel as have a relativly new Nani engine has not given me much cause for concern.
Just to give some clarity to the leaded/unleaded comments.
I own a 1969 Triumph Herald and until I started its restoration I was running it on unleaded without any additives as do many and no adjustments needed as using unleaded did not result in it pinking which it may have done.
The argument put forward by those with much more experience than me, is that 30+ years of leaded petrol has given the valve seats a good degree of protection.
People who are new to owning a Triumph want to fit an unleaded head and the general concensus is if the engine needs work doing to it then that may be a good time to do it but if not then use unleaded.
Not a lot to add to the white, red debate so the thought of using white diesel as have a relativly new Nani engine has not given me much cause for concern.
Just to give some clarity to the leaded/unleaded comments.
I own a 1969 Triumph Herald and until I started its restoration I was running it on unleaded without any additives as do many and no adjustments needed as using unleaded did not result in it pinking which it may have done.
The argument put forward by those with much more experience than me, is that 30+ years of leaded petrol has given the valve seats a good degree of protection.
People who are new to owning a Triumph want to fit an unleaded head and the general concensus is if the engine needs work doing to it then that may be a good time to do it but if not then use unleaded.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Just a few points.......
Having attended the Conidia sponsors of the 2010 conference on marine fuels issues delt with in some detail.
#1 In real terms FAME is being added to road fuels far smaller quantities than 7%, closer to 3%.
#2 Trellborg reserch paper on FAME demonstrates that on its own it is pretty benign, however the presence of water together with FAME creates the seal, and other damaging reactions.
#3 100% true that presence of FAME loosens accumulated crud in fuel tanks. In the last year I have looked at a number of issues caused by disturbance of tank crud. The introduction of the new NRMM virtually sulphur free fuel with element of FAME in January 2011 (marked road fuel) which people still mistakenly call ULSD has created a few problems for several airports I deal with. Equipment is very similar in operation to marine envionment, standing for an extended periods. Ground power units, crew buses and refuelling trucks have all suffered. Following upgrade to filteration using PROPER marine standard two stage filteration as well as keepng tanks topped off following use we got on top of the problem.
Diesel engines with inline jerk pumps of any vintage are pretty much immune from effects of virtually sulphur free fuel. Only adverse result has been with very old engines with hydraulically governed CAV DPA fuel pumps. The rotor vapour locks when hot causing failure to restart whan shut down hot.
Guys from Delphi are pragmatic, pump went out of production over 35 yars ago, spares no longer produced. When the hydraulically goverend DPA was designed our current fuels were never envisaged and internal tolerances cannot produce the line pressue to pop the injector needles when fuel is hot. We took the decision that any equipment and it actually amounts to very little, with Perkins 6.354's and 4.108's shoud be scrapped off.
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
We steer clear of marina fuel pontoons for 2 reasons. Firstly, they all charge about 10% more than the local garages. Secodnly, the throughput except in the height of summer is such that they often have water in the fuel. The so what is that we've been running a 12 year old Volvo on MD2030 road fuel for the past 3 years. No problems with the engine at all. I can't see what the small addition of veggie oil will do to the engine. With good filter systems, a clean tank and attention to making sure the tank is kept reasonably full, thus minimising the opportunity for condensation, I do not think that there is any real problem with road diesel - except the cost!
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nimbusgb
Well-Known Member
Hey! My old 4.108 donk is dear to me! I have a spare in the garage too! The boat it is in is a long way from being scrapped! Hands orf!
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
No doubt - but are we to put the whole world on hold because of them? Do we really have to wait till the last of these old bangers (no disrespect intended) has died before we can move on?
I am by no means suggesting that owners of older engines which see limited use should re-engine, but I'm sure an alternative fuel supplier can be found to cover their needs.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Hey! My old 4.108 donk is dear to me! I have a spare in the garage too! The boat it is in is a long way from being scrapped! Hands orf!
Scrap metal prices currently strong but set to fall.....Do it now!
If a nice vessel it will appreciate a new heart from Japan, Kubota Yanmar, now I could become emotional over one of these little gems, a 4.108, I thought boating was for pleasure!
Little Five
Well-Known Member
As with others in the same position, I am looking for informed information as to the make up of todays garage pump diesel and the effect it might have on my old engine. I don't imagine that anyone would wish others to have to wait for our engines to die or be replaced. My concern is the safety of my boat as I approach land and put on the engine to make harbour and not have to worry if the engine is about to stop.
jwilson
Well-Known Member
I do feel that although many have reported no problems with "garage fuel" used for years, the steady increase in bio/FAME content is starting to cause problems. In around 2002 I fired up a diesel that had definitely not been started for at least 5 years, using fuel that was probably well over 10 years in the tank. It then ran very nicely for about 30 hours almost non-stop on a delivery passage. The tank was almost certainly full of old high-sulphur red diesel.
We just did not use to hear about "diesel bug" - now it seems to be getting horribly common. It is known that FAME produces good conditions for the bugs, also possibly is not good for some engine components.
I am not especially worried about the red/white/duty/cost aspect of the fuel - I would prefer however to keep bio-diesel out of yacht tanks, mainly for the diesel bug reason.
pheran
Well-Known Member
Having run a variety of boat engines on road going white diesel over a ten year period, I have to say that the only real difference I noticed was that the lubricating oil seemed to stay a lot cleaner for longer. I can't help feeling people are looking for problems where none exist.