Marina prices/pilot website

SvenglishTommy

SvenglishTommy

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sailingawayforayearandaday.blogspot.com
I've been thinking for a while now that I might create a website where people can log marinas they've been to and what they paid for them, as well as anchorages and cruising notes for different spots around the world.

I've seen so much good info on various blogs/websites and it would be really nice to get it all in one place in an easy to access format, especially what marinas are charging at different times of the year etc... and some of the info in supposedly up to date pilots is obviously well outdated, even if the book says otherwise. (*cough* rcc)

What do you guys reckon, would people use/contribute to it?

As you can probably guess, I'm bored :P
 
Good idea in principle but I can see one problem. e.g. Person (or competitor) with a gripe invents a high price.

I'd heard that Gijon was expensive (94 Eur / night mentioned in a blog). In fact it would only have been around 43 Eur for my boat (WiFi 2 Eur extra). The figure I'd read was enough to make me go to marina Yates instead.

Perhaps some voting or weighting system is needed to stop one person slewing the results.

Keeping prices current would be great and I suppose you'd need to keep price data with dates to show the age of the record.

Reed's 2012 gives price for Ribadeo as 0.642 Eur /m2 + 7%IVA (2011 sometime?). But it was actually 0.944 Eur /m2 incl. tax a couple of weeks ago.

I imagine that the site might start as a simple list of "price for my boat was nn.nn Eur on this date" and evolve into something more complex later.

I can see that it would be a lot of work to put together but would be a big benefit (assuming people using it did feel inclined to keep it updated).

I'd be interested to see if anyone can come up with a good model for operating this type of site. The trick is to have something that makes people keen to add their data. Otherwise you are relying on altruism (sometimes that's enough on the Web).
 
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There is one already out there which gives up to date information and is used on an I pad. What's more it is very informative and more or less pretty up to date.

The trouble or advantage (depending on how you look at it) is that you have to be a member of the cruising association to get the free App.

The advantage to this for members is that you know who has updated a particular harbour, when and that the information will be reliable. Any member who then visits that place can add their own comment thus keeping it up to date with items that you will not find elsewhere.
 
Certainly reports from people who have actually visited a marina are always likley to be useful - a pilot book or other reference will not give any indication of the level of service or the standard of facilities.

As far as pricing goes, surely the marina website must be the most accurate info available so including a link to that site is probably the best way forward - then the info should always be up to date.

As liveaboards we very rarely use marinas so we are much more interested in suitable anchorages, dinghy landing areas, access to supermarkets and such like. Unfortunately Pilot Books seem to be getting worse at providing this info, they seem to assume that everyone goes into a marina!!! Also where anchorage info is included it seems to be inaccurate or out of date for various reasons - such as new mooring fields, marine protection zones, harbour extensions or changes to harbour byelaws. I appreciate that Pilot Books, by their very nature, will always be out of date - I am just making the point that anchorage info is generally poor. As an example the Pilot for the NW corner of Minorca mentions a couple of possible anchorages just on the North Coast, however when we checked them out we still had 20m of water within a boat length of the rocks, the Navionics charts showed the water should have been between 5 & 10m so it is fairly clear that the Pilot Book info was written purely from the chart and not from actual experience.

Any website with ongoing updates about anchorages would be very useful and we would gladly contribute our experiences.
 
Chris,

I am totally with you on this one.
A site on anchorages, holding, where to leave the dingy would be far more useful. Most of the information we get is from cruisers who we meet an tell us about them. Finding good information is not easy and we have found the pilot books to be well out of date.
 
I had worried about the possibility of people (or companies) abusing it. I guess it's always a problem with anything like this. I was planning to have a user logon system so people can put in their initial data (boat details etc) which could go some way to validating input (i.e. you could see if it was just a random one off entry).

My initial plan is to make something driven my Google maps (or some other mapping interface) where users can just add marinas, anchorages, and places of interest - then add comments and even upload pictures if they wanted.

What I certainly dont want to do is re-invent the wheel, so if the CA have something like this already then I suppose there isn't much point. It's a shame they dont make the data public though, even if they limit the uploading to members.
 
Mistroma said:
I'd be interested to see if anyone can come up with a good model for operating this type of site. The trick is to have something that makes people keen to add their data. Otherwise you are relying on altruism (sometimes that's enough on the Web).
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On marina prices, there are two big snags. Prices change annually, and with season, and with length of stay, and with boat legth, or boat area . . . so keeping up to date is not possible. The best that can be done is to provide web site links - and hope that those are updated (about 20% aren't!)

Anchorages similarly change, luckily not so often. Fish farms arrive, restaurants change ownership, discos open, WiFi's come and go. I suppose some 1 in 5 places have a small change each year.

Its' easy to track all this detail for a "cruise region" - which I'll define as a fortnight's worth of pootling around in a charter boat. And, in fact the best sources of up to date information about such areas are those who provide the charter vessels. But they're busy people, with little incentive to keep a third party site up to date. For all of Europe? Another matter, but not impossible if the framework is provided, and that's what I'm half way through doing here.

To keep info up to date it has to be very easy for people to respond immediately if something interesting is seen. The Cruising Association App is brilliant tool for that. They've quadrupled the rate at which reports come in.

Another way is to make it very easy for people reading about a region on a web site to post a comment about the page they are reading. That makes each page effectively a live forum for that region (or subject). The comments are then edited into the text once they are confirmed. That's the model I've chosen.

Sadly, you can't make it too easy to post comments, otherwise spammers addrubbish. So only "registered" people can add comments (like this forum, you have to be registered to post). And that's a barrier . . .

My site has about 1,000 "members" who can post, but five times the number of anonymous users who can't post comments. So I've got to tweak the model to give them an incentive to register.

This autumn quite a lot of site info will be hidden from people who don't register . . . I'm hoping by then enough people will be addicted to persuade them it's worth registering, and posting.

Then I've got to work out how to make little money from the site - first to pay for costs, but most important, to give an incentive for someone to take it over for the long term.

Any ideas?
 
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jimbaerselman said:
On marina prices, there are two big snags. Prices change annually, and with season, and with length of stay, and with boat legth, or boat area . . . so keeping up to date is not possible. The best that can be done is to provide web site links - and hope that those are updated (about 20% aren't!)

Anchorages similarly change, luckily not so often. Fish farms arrive, restaurants change ownership, discos open, WiFi's come and go. I suppose some 1 in 5 places have a small change each year.
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This is exactly the reason I wanted to make the site, so that people who visit marinas/anchorages can keep the info up to date, rather than pilot books that are updated rarely (and often dont bother to re-check even when they do 'update').

jimbaerselman said:
Then I've got to work out how to make little money from the site - first to pay for costs, but most important, to give an incentive for someone to take it over for the long term.

Any ideas?
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Google AdSense, or offer PPC campaigns (or fixed banners) to relevant companies.
 
Nostrodamus - we also get a lot of info from fellow cruisers - is a huge benefit of the cruising community, somebody has always been there before!!!

We are not CA members so we do not see the type of info that is available, perhaps the CA should consider making the members only info public for a couple of selected places so we could see how useful the info might be, it may encourage a few more people to join up.

Does the members area include the sort of detailed info on anchorages that we have mentioned as being useful or is it primarily aimed at ports and marinas?

Jim - I do check your site for info and the time and effort you put into maintaining the site is much appreciated. I have not yet registered but I will do so now to see how much extra info is available and also to allow us to post our experiences.

Tommy - you may like to have a good look at jim's site, it already seems to cover some of the aims you mention in your OP.

A regularly updated and informative website for cruisers should get plenty of traffic and hence should be able to generate enough income to more than cover costs.
 
SvenglishTommy said:
This is exactly the reason I wanted to make the site, so that people who visit marinas/anchorages can keep the info up to date, rather than pilot books that are updated rarely
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The Cruising Association "reports" and Apps we've been talking of are pulled together by "regional editors". They link all the reports to key pilot books for each area. The reports themselves are available immediately on the member's web site; when pulled together they're called "pilot book updates", and published as big pdf files for members to download - page referenced.

But, of course, not all harbours/anchorages/marinas are used each year, so things escape!

I use this forum as a source, particulary noting people's blogs, seeing where they've been, then asking if they can check some of the relevant pages. Works well, but people do need this type of proactive reminder to react! And my old mates in the charter industry are also brilliant sources for their individual areas.

And I love those site members who drop by for a gossip when passing passing Finikounda . . .
 
Cris,
It is a point myself and Jim have been telling the association.
There is really some excellent information on the CA site and on the App which is continually being updated, but if it is never shown to others outside the CA how do they know it is there?
I had the same problems and deliberated before I joined as I did not know what they were actually offering.
Things are getting better as they are now getting more discounts and the app alone is excellent and should only get better with the continual input from cruisers.
I have also put your very valid point to the CA
 
Just a couple of more points about the benefits of CA membership. As well as access to the cruising guides and pilot updates (and the new App CAptain's Mate) the CA appoints Honorary Local Representatives (HLRs) in ports around the world. These people are the local "experts" on their port or region. CA members can contact the HLR for any area(s) they like and get access to their local knowledge (and assistance) should they need or want it.

The CA has also negotiated significant discounts on a huge number of ports, marinas, chandlers etc. around the world. In some cases the savings made with the CA discount on a winter berth is more than the cost of CA membership!

If you're interested the CA also has a very varied and active social life. Parties, rallies and informal get-togethers are common and usually informative as well as great fun.

There is much more to the CA than the website....
 
crisjones said:
We are not CA members so we do not see the type of info that is available, perhaps the CA should consider making the members only info public for a couple of selected places so we could see how useful the info might be, it may encourage a few more people to join up.
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It's not easy putting this idea across to all CA editors who've worked their butts off creating pages of material. One or two feel that only members should see their work.

Others work to inform a larger group - see Roundtop's Crete pilot for an example (big file though! takes time to download!). And, for that matter, my pages, and if you're in the Baltic, see Yacht Kissen's pages. He's a very active CA member.

You're right of course. The essence of modern marketing is to give people a very clear description of what's in the box. And there's no better way than to hand out samples. Or give easy access to useful upper levels of information so that people find some value in visiting the web site.

So, for instance, the Blue Water seminar which is being run next weekend in London, and is open to non-members, is now fully booked. And almost all who attended last winter's Mediterranean public seminars joined up.

I takes time to turn a big ship.
 
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As Jim intimates, most people like to see what they are getting before they buy (or join), hence my suggestion that making some CA Members Only info available as a “sample” can only be beneficial, alternatively perhaps the CA could consider a time limited “Guest” login to let prospective members have a browse around the info for a short time to assess the quality and relevance for their own needs. Unfortunately a lot of organisations like the CA have people at the helm who have old fashioned ideas and change takes time and much persuasion.

I am well aware of the other sides of the CA other than just the website (we wintered with John & Mo on Fuga who actively promote the CA) and those other activities may or may not be of benefit to individual cruisers – it all depends on their needs.

A lot of people suggest that the pre-arranged discounts often more than cover the CA membership fee and that may well be the case for quite a few people. We hardly ever visit marinas in the summer so any CA discount is largely irrelevant, we do winter in marinas but in the current economic climate I am confident I can negotiate my own discount to the same or better level than the CA, you have to talk directly to the Marina Management. Very few Med marinas will not offer a discount to a potential wintering boat – they need the revenue and most appreciate that having 70% or 80% or whatever proportion of the published price is far preferable to having zero – there are numerous marinas who are far from full for the winter. I appreciate that some people dislike this “negotiation” and are happy to accept the CA pre-arranged discount, that is their choice.

However, I believe there is already sufficient info on ports and marinas if you do a bit of searching, it is the info and detail on anchorages and related factors that is hard to come by. I am yet to be convinced that the CA Members Only info does a good job in this respect, however I am happy to be persuaded otherwise.
 
I would also greatly welcome a site for anchorage info. Most of the pilot books, CA info and Jim's site are mainly aimed at marina users.

I guess what is needed for each anchorage is:

*Location
*Depth(s)
*Holding
*Shelter
*Where to get water
*Where to leave the dinghy
*Any other facilities - shops, bars, laundry, etc
*Any security issues
*General comment on how nice it is

Clearly, this is a different proposition from a site for marinas. There are no commercial issues, and the info shouldn't go out of date so quickly. We need something like a "Wiki", so that any one can add or edit info. Unfortunately, I don't have the technology to set it up.

Tony MS
 
Tony - I think that just about sums it up, such info would be invaluable to most cruisers as they decide where to head for next.

Perhaps Jim could consider adding an anchorage section to his site so that registered users could post the relevant info?? Over time it could build into a great reference for cruisers. This approach might be better than starting a whole new website, since Jim already has a regular following and his site is already well known. Obviously this is down to Jim, if he thinks it worthwhile and beneficial.
 
When first started cruising there weren't any pilot books - except the Admiralty Pilots. So I learnt basic Channel ports from other skippers, then started poking around those locally to find day anchorages and safe dry-out spots. That searching was, for me, the essence of cruising. Exploring the unknown, then writing it up for others.

Moving into the Med was a similar challenge. Great place to teach people the basics of cruising - if one could find a nice cruising area. So a few of us studied charts to find potential cruising areas, went there, spoke to people sailing locally (not many of them!), then spent however long was needed to poke into every bay, nook and cranny of the area to map out anchorages, quays to use, ports to replenish. That was a thrill. You never knew what to expect. Found some stink holes. Found some absolute gems.

Results were listed for flotilla leaders and charter clients, then later published in pilot books, ready to be rubbished as being out of date. Why?

Many "gems" have turned into large factories to service masses of charter vessels with showers, food and wifi . . . stay one night and bustle off to the next "gem" before it fills up.

Now, let's speculate, where's the next, good, unspoilt cruising ground. The certainty is that the nearest airport will be 3 hours or more distant . . . or the weather will be variable . . . or it won't have any yacht support infrastructure . . . or it'll be too windy. Cyclades anyone? More anchrages than you can shake a Rocna at . . . mostly un-documented.
 
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SvenglishTommy said:
I've been thinking for a while now that I might create a website where people can log marinas they've been to and what they paid for them, as well as anchorages and cruising notes for different spots around the world.

I've seen so much good info on various blogs/websites and it would be really nice to get it all in one place in an easy to access format, especially what marinas are charging at different times of the year etc... and some of the info in supposedly up to date pilots is obviously well outdated, even if the book says otherwise. (*cough* rcc)

What do you guys reckon, would people use/contribute to it?

As you can probably guess, I'm bored :P
Click to expand...


Have you seen this site:

https://activecaptain.com/X.php
 
NDH said:
Have you seen this site:

https://activecaptain.com/X.php
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Or http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/List_of_Countries_A_to_Z

Then compare their sparse cover with the incredible detail which can be created for small areas:

1, http://www.roserambler.co.uk/pp3.htm for anchorages

2, http://www.visitmyharbour.com/harbours/west-scotland-northern-ireland/ for harbours

3, http://www.digimap.gg/ecrehous - just a wonderful source for detail about the Channel Islands and nearby France

At this stage you realise that the info is all there. If you can find it! And it is produced for a variety of reasons - to promote a firm or an area, to attract advertising income, to record a trip for friends and family.
 
NDH said:
Have you seen this site:

https://activecaptain.com/X.php
Click to expand...

No I hadn't. That's exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of, an interactive pilot. Unfortunately that one isn't updated at all, and the info is very sparse I guess that would be the problem, at least initially.

There's so much good info about, but as Jim points out it's sometimes very hard to find it. I just thought it would be nice to have it all in one place, in an interactive format.

Have you thought about adding some interactive content to your site Jim?
 
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