Marina fees

[Tranona]

Chalk and cheese. BUT I do think the British psyche has to take a large portion of the blame; that's not a criticism just an observation.

Have a nice day

Think you oversimplify the issues, particularly related to costs. Anybody who knows the cost structure of a tidal marina on the South Coast will tell you that the majority of the costs are externally imposed and fixed, particularly dredging, business rates and harbour dues. They also have other external pressures, particularly for other uses for the asset that mean if the income falls to a level that will not cover the fixed costs, the capital value as a marina falls and there is a danger that the marina will be sold for other uses. You need to remember that most have significant land attached to them which has a higher potential value as building land than as car park or storage land in support of marina activities.

Where these constraints do not exist prices and costs are substantially lower. If you analyse the cost base of a marina you will find the controllable costs are a small proportion of the total cost in the popular (expensive) ones.

In absolute terms operating costs are low if you exclude business rates, dredging and return on capital. My boat is in a club owned marina which does not have these costs and the operating costs including maintenance on the physical structure (pontoons, walkways, sheet piling but not bund wall) come out at around £100 a metre boat length pa - about one third of the price of a similar commercial marina. So, even if a commercial marina halved its controllable costs (which are similar to our club costs) it would only reduce prices by just over 15% - and service to customers would fall significantly.

Marina berths are scarce resources and the supply is almost fixed in the popular areas - but demand continues to grow. Pricing mechanisms are the way scarce resources are allocated. Currently most of the excess demand has been curtailed by people moving (if they can) to cheaper less popular areas or putting their boats into storage - one storage yard here has seen the number of boats in storage through the summer double in the last 3 years. Add to that the demand was often illusory as people often had their names on waiting lists with little intention of taking up a vacancy.

Little bit like the mythical Morgan waiting list - the majority on the list never actually bought the car when their turn came. As soon as they allowed dealers to order for stock, most of the waiting list disappeared. Big gamble, but the underlying real demand stayed the same, or increased because new cars were much more readily available. Much the same will happen (has happened) with marina berths. Demand has fallen at the margins and is in balance with supply. Of course that could change in the future if more boats moved out of the UK and no new boats came in, or the economy picks up and new boat sales - the biggest driver of demand - increases.

 

[wklein]

Interesting thread. In dartmouth the land value is so much higher than any potential income from a marina / boatyard.

We have some of the higest marina prices in the country, i think Dart Marina is second highest and has no real facilities (no chandlery, haulout, on-site maintenence) Tiny distances between piers and huge cross tides, yet remained until very recently completely full and unwilling to negotiate even in winter.

However how much are people actually willing to pay for 4 cleats and a plug socket to keep this land from developers?

Edit: Just looked it up and Dart Marina is £689 / m

 

[Seajet]

I was horrified by the plan to fill in Port Solent and build houses, as far as I know the only real stopper on that has been the recession in the housing market.

One would have hoped the council would object to such a plan - removing a fairly major attraction for land as well as water based visitors to Portsmouth as well as major amenity for residents - but I think I can guess the forces at work there...

 

[Seajet]

Going on from filling in Port Solent to build lucrative houses / apartments on, I doubt planning permission would ever be given to encroach on a harbour and its' surrounds for a direct housing project - maybe the bird lobby might actually be useful for once - but this sort of thing requires very careful monitoring.

Bear in mind that because of said bird lobby and other career conservationists, swinging moorings are going to be very scarce in future for those who actually appreciate them or are simply forced out of marinas by finances.

If you know of any disused mooring, get it physically labelled ( can be an old plastic milk bottle with the number, doesn't need to be viable for immediate use ) and marked on the harbour plan by whoever is in charge of such things.

Otherwise such moorings will be regarded as ' item deposited on seabed ' and lost forever; when you are retired you might well have fancied that mooring !

 

[Tranona]

If you watch these matters closely you will see that marinas are even less popular with the "community" than housing. There is a housing shortage and even building upmarket houses results in a proportion of the development being social housing - much easier to get planning permission.

You can see this in Poole where the Harbour Commissioners are struggling to get approval for a marina development, even though it takes no land, but a big housing project on the old Pilkingtons site which has water frontage and would have made a good marina site gets nodded through.

Doubt there will be any more marina or boatyard developments on the South Coast as all the potential sites have gone. More likely to be the opposite as small sites such as Coombes in Bosham and Lilliput in Poole get swallowed up by housing.

 

[Seajet]

If you watch these matters closely you will see that marinas are even less popular with the "community" than housing. There is a housing shortage and even building upmarket houses results in a proportion of the development being social housing - much easier to get planning permission.

You can see this in Poole where the Harbour Commissioners are struggling to get approval for a marina development, even though it takes no land, but a big housing project on the old Pilkingtons site which has water frontage and would have made a good marina site gets nodded through.

Doubt there will be any more marina or boatyard developments on the South Coast as all the potential sites have gone. More likely to be the opposite as small sites such as Coombes in Bosham and Lilliput in Poole get swallowed up by housing.

I'm sure you're right re marina developments, the South Coast must be highly unlikely to get any more which is why I went on to mention swinging moorings, both in case the demand returns and as an affordable alternative to boat owners also caught in the recession.

Sadly it seems the East Coast is similarly unlikely to get marinas, but there it really does come down to the poxy RSPB - and I'm keen on ( feathered ) birds !
There is too much approval for prime site housing development, where I live in West Sussex we are currently surrounded by housing developments swallowing up green fields while brown field sites languish.

Where this happens at the waterside it's about time we who care about the countrys' maritime heritage stood up - maybe in the form of the RYA, and it wouldn't do BORG any harm to go onto the attack.

Maybe the example of Selsey and Pagham - where sea defences must not be maintained and homes and businesses count for nothing because a career conservationist conveniently found a dead snail ( the RSPB are in on it too ) - may one day be used to advantage to prevent housing encroaching on other harbours.

Otherwise we're going to be squeezed between marinas we can't afford to stay in or indeed operate, and scarce swinging moorings the rest having been scrubbed by the MMO, no doubt lined at the tidemark by places like ' Clarissas' Pantry ' and ' The Ragamuffin in Gucci ' bar !

 

[flawed_logic]

Doubt there will be any more marina or boatyard developments on the South Coast as all the potential sites have gone. More likely to be the opposite as small sites such as Coombes in Bosham and Lilliput in Poole get swallowed up by housing.

I can think of 3 new marinas, Hamble (see YM), Plymouth (millbay), Falmouth. Also Noss on the dart is being redeveloped at some point.

 

[wklein]

I can think of 3 new marinas, Hamble (see YM), Plymouth (millbay), Falmouth. Also Noss on the dart is being redeveloped at some point.

Noss is being redeveloped but land ashore is being slashed to make way for the new housing. They are attempting to have no medium term storage and have boats out for no longer than 2 weeks.

 

[wotayottie]

WE have reports from posters suggesting its possible to negotiate marina fees but in every case they seem reluctant to name the marina that is flexible. Thats no help. If we are to make progress and have some negotiating power we need to swap information.

Any ideas how we might do it?

 

[Seajet]

WE have reports from posters suggesting its possible to negotiate marina fees but in every case they seem reluctant to name the marina that is flexible. Thats no help. If we are to make progress and have some negotiating power we need to swap information.

Any ideas how we might do it?

To actually get negotiating seems to indicate contacting other owners at a given marina, as has happened before; maybe armed with info from PM's here ?

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Richard, quite right. I've always been told that it's seven times more expensive to win a new customer than retain your existing customers. In my business I look after my existing customers first and potential clients to whom we're pitching are always told that.

We berth holders suffer the great British disease of not being comfortable bargaining in personal transaction scenarios whereas in business we quite happily negotiate. We should negotiate with the marina operators and make them aware that they need to recognise the current economic circumstances. They need to strive to retain our business not simply await our cheque in payment. This means that we need to be prepared to vote with our keels when necessary.

So do you negotiate on everything else that you spend your money on?

Supermarkets? Fuel? Council Tax? Restaurants? Theatres? plenty of other examples.

Some marinas and yards on the South Coast have not increased their rates for 5 years, but most of their operating costs have gone up in line with or ahead of inflation.

 

[Koeketiene]

Some marinas and yards on the South Coast have not increased their rates for 5 years,

Shows how big the profit margins were 5 years ago.

but most of their operating costs have gone up in line with or ahead of inflation.

So? Times are hard. For all of us.
In case you hadn't heard: we're all in this together. Including marinas.

 

[Seajet]

MoodyNick,

I'm afraid OR4751 has a point; it wasn't your lot, but we who were around haven't forgotten the ' We'll raise prices until the pips squeak' quote; a good friend of mine based in Brixham went bankrupt and scrapped his classic wooden boat for the materials as he couldn't afford to keep her.

I know what happened to the idiot giving the quote, in the short term, but I bet he's still a fat cat.

Marinas vary so much that it's sometimes hard to tell a small business giving it their all from a big operator treating one with indifference, I and chums try to be clear on this but I doubt many people do, especially newbies.

I should emphasize at this point that though I've been a boat owner for 34 years and sailed cruisers longer, I have only been a marina resident for a couple of seasons at Emsworth Marina.

I chose that place because of its' position next to the town - in those days several chandleries as well as the pubs and shops etc ! - rather than the more tidally blessed but almost completely characterless Northney.

I was priced out as a youngster and haven't even considered returning, then I am very lucky with my mooring.

I can only guess the cost and effort involved in running a good marina, and I would imagine 90% of a good managers' time is spent convincing the investors...

However I have to see it from the user perspective; funny how marinas I visited - again NOT yours - had things like broken /weak planks ( my Mother hurt an ankle badly stepping down onto a pontoon and going straight through, she's no Hatti Jacques ! ) and dubious water let alone power supplies, but now there are empty spaces the marinas I visit seem to be up-together.

The fact is Nick, marinas have been either 'taking the P out of' or 'catering for' people with lots of disposable income, and now reality bites people have alternatives like other marinas, swinging / trot moorings etc, or giving up !

I'm decidedly British and blushing, but if I was in a marina right now I'd be negotiating, not least based on being on the wrong end of demand & supply on the subject in the past !

 

[Georgio]

Some marinas and yards on the South Coast have not increased their rates for 5 years, but most of their operating costs have gone up in line with or ahead of inflation.

I would very much like to know which Marina's have not put their prices up for 5 years.

Just had my renewal though and it's up by 4.5%.

Last year it went up by about 12% or so

Previous year is was 4% or so

This is for a Pile mooring in Portsmouth Hbr but it is run by a marina (Premier).

 

[BlueSkyNick]

So? Times are hard. For all of us.
In case you hadn't heard: we're all in this together. Including marinas.

My point entirely.

 

[sailorman]

I would very much like to know which Marina's have not put their prices up for 5 years.

Just had my renewal though and it's up by 4.5%.

Last year it went up by about 12% or so

Previous year is was 4% or so

This is for a Pile mooring in Portsmouth Hbr but it is run by a marina (Premier).

we have just had a 5% rise after 4 yrs

 

[BlueSkyNick]

I would very much like to know which Marina's have not put their prices up for 5 years.

Berthon in Lymington (next year will be the 5th). Yacht Haven are staying the same for the at least the third year, if not the fourth.

Other marinas have kept their prices down and given away other benefits, such as free visitor berthing within their company, 0% charge for monthly direct debits, storage ashore, etc.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Shows how big the profit margins were 5 years ago.
.

It's called market forces.

 

[Seajet]

MoodyNick & others,

genuine question, any benefit to visitors from marinas getting their acts together ?

Berthon has always had top notch facilities but pricey in our book, while others like East Cowes has varied between cheap and cheerful to measures of both but in an extremely variable ratio !

Now the facilities at East Cowes are first class unlike the portakabins, but gone is the old sheltered visitors enclave which was so much fun to walk around and chat, also the DIY barbecue area; worst sin of all was to do away with the lovely lady who used to run the cafe there, real stuff to set one up for the trip home especially breakfasts, the plastic pub and long wait is a poor substitute.

 

[Koeketiene]

It's called market forces.

Yes, but then you shouldn't complain when the boot's on the other foot.

Come renewal time I actively seek to get the best deal possible, and if that means moving the boat I will move the boat.

In the current economic climate more marinas have more free berths available. And more boat owners begin to realise this.

That too is market forces at play.