Marina Fees ???? Fair or not ?

[Eric]

The solution: A proper recession

What this country needs is a proper recession, that will bring down the cost of cars, property and above all mooring fees.

In contrast to what a number of people would like to believe (funny enough), prices are determined by supply and demand. Any book on the basics of economics will tell you that. I am not convinced that any berth-holders organisation will be able to do anything substantial about the problem.

The only way to do something about the problem is to do something about the supply-demand situation by either building more marinas (as bedouin already suggested) or having fewer boats. The only way to reduce the number of boats to have an impact is a good recession.

I have just been unemployed for three months and I can now imagine what a recession could mean to individuals.

I know I'd rather pay the mooring fees...

Happy sailing
Eric

 

[johnt]

and how is "charge 'till the pips squeek" fair may I ask, (MDL) several years ago....mooring costs in this country are NOT fair!.....and as I said before , the uk is far and away the most expensive in Europe for mooring ..and without justification.

Its £180 per year for a berth just outside Stavanger!!!!!!!!!!!! equate that with near on £2000!.......

 

[vyv_cox]

Looking at it from the other side of the North Sea, it is pretty evident that, in Holland at least, supply and demand doesn't seem to enter into it. Contrast Scheveningen and Ijmuiden The former is an old harbour, 3 km from The Hague, always packed solid with boats, five year waiting list for a berth. Ijmuiden is relatively new, much better premises and facilities but some way from a centre of population and only about half full. From memory the full year in either is about 1000 pounds, visiting for a 34 foot boat costs a little under 10 pounds. I have never paid any more than this and often pay a lot less inland, the least being 8 guilders, currently not a lot more than 2 pounds. That included electricity plus full facilities, although not very grand. There seems to be a sort of sliding scale based on the quality and convenience of services but popularity doesn't seem to be a major factor.

Much the same applies to hotels, where similar thinking afflicts UK. How can a room in Britain, offering identical comfort and service to that in Holland, Belgium, France and Germany, cost three times as much? And I don't think it is anything to do with the EU, grants, unfair competition, or any of the other preferred excuses. In fact the situation is the opposite, at least for Holland, where a high minimum wage applies.

The big difference, in both cases, is the ownership. The majority of hotels are in private ownership and very many marinas belong to clubs or individuals. These keep the price down in the company owned examples. Profits are reasonable but not excessive. The Dutch are renowned for voting with their feet and will certainly move if costs are seen to be rising. And they do have plenty of choice, at least inland.

 

[Guest]

Yes, but in Britain we have an obsession that everything is pre-determined by free market economics and unquestioning certainty that privatisation of everything is a good thing (except when it isn't, of course, like the Army. And nuclear power stations. And the Queen etc.).

It is very convenient because it means that we can just roll over and go back to sleep since everything is decided for us by the market, before which we are powerless.

Of course, there is really no such thing as a free market. Any market is regulated to some extent. Try selling bananas and you'll have to comply with a host of regulation. Or try opening and running a marina anywhere in the UK without consulting the authorities, and see what happens. But this regulation doesn't fit in with the "zeitgeist" and is therefore not convenient to mention.

 

[tomg]

JohnT your rant wont do. 'Public Companies' (by which I presume you mean Goverment or Municipally owned) do of course service private debts but they all run on Trading Funds and service their capital debts, rates and funding debts by internal transer mechanisms (known as 'funny money' to those on the inside) and dont pay tax because they dont make profits. The very few that show an excess of income over expenditure do so before many expenditure heads which a commercial business would face. They are a drain on the taxpayer or ratepayers purse and that is one of the reasons that Government is keen to 'privatise' them. And as to 'fairness', it is the wrong concept and you'll get nowhere with it except for venting your feelings. Better I say to conside 'value' and if you can get better value elsewhere then go for it. Dont go to the new Poole facility(it is pretty full anyway on a nice summer day), anchor instead (because there are none much cheaper there) or go to the quay at Weymouth(but not the marina) and forgoe the pleasures of any of the Solent marinas or, like me ,sail tomorrow morning for three weeks in France and pay lower fees courtesy of the French ratepayers (but dont buy their deisel) and, like me, spend the difference on Moules et Sole Bonne Femme. Cheers.

 

[Guest]

Re: same or more in france

It's a bout 7k pa for a 45 footer in riviera, less in some places, more in others. I'm told this slightly more than Uk, not much tho. Essentially market driven, as you say, long-term lease prices have doubled in value over five years even though we're down to mostly 20ish years now, but lots less than balearics with extra brits and germans. Municipal marinas eg Cannes bit cheaper, but only by a few percent, otherwise they'd be crowded out, of course.

 

[johnt]

it has now become clearly apparent that most of the people on this forum either:

A/ Dont own a boat ...or
B/ Have more money than sense!

May your next motor car cost twice what its available for elsewhere ......same principle, find a sucker and bleed him dry, and you lot seem to enjoy paying more than you NEED to!

and economic principles only work in a FREE market! not a sellers market.

 

[bedouin]

Re: \'Fraid not

I think you misunderstand the meaning of a Free Market. A Free Market is simply one in which the seller is free to set whatever price he wants, and the buyer free to chose to buy (or not) from a number of sources.

The terms 'buyers market' and 'sellers market' just indicate where the balance of power lies within a free market.

In a free market it is possible that one person may be selling the same product/service (e.g. car) for significantly more than another. The buyer is free to choose which to buy from and presumably only buys the more expensive if he perceives it to be of greater 'value' to him. We see this happening on a daily basis, where people are prepared to pay premium prices for a particular badge on the front of the car, be it Merc, BMW, Lexus or whatever. These same brands deliberately control supply to the market to maintain the premium positioning of their product.

At present the free market economy is the dominant economic ideology of the developed world. There are a large number of people who disagree with the philosophy behind it, including all the 'anti-globalisation' campaigners.

There is no real evidence of the Marina owners operating a 'Cartel' and so we have to conclude that the marina operators must be free to charge what they like.

If I had the choice between a Marina and a swinging mooring at the same price I would (probably) choose the Marina. I don't. Instead I assess the value proposition of the two alternatives and choose that which to me offers the better value - the swinging mooring.

The fact that the Marinas are full proves that there are plenty of people out there who have different priorities - that doesn't make them stupid, just that they have a different perception of value.

 

[bedouin]

A few sums

Back of envelop stuff...

IIRC C&N recently spent £10m refurbishing their marina to add another 200 berths, or thereabouts.

Assuming that the money is borrowed at 6.5% repayable over a 10 year period, the cost of servicing the loan comes out at about £1.4m per year - or £7,000 p.a. for every new berth created!

Given that they were prepared to let me rent one at a mere £2700 p.a. means that they should be applying for charitable status!

 

[Bergman]

As I said "fair" does not enter into the argument.

If my recolection of the geography is correct Stavanger is in Norway which is not a member of the EU and is therefore able to subsidise whatever it wishes.

It is financially impossible to offer a berth at £180 pa and break even.

If you can get such a deal why not shift your boat to Norway. There is a good ferry service from Newcastle.

By the by the "charge till the pips squeak" bit was a misquote of a former chancellor of the Exchequer who was going to "tax till the pips squeak"

He didn't like the free market or understand it.

 

[Guest]

I would agree with most of your statement, It would appear that most of the replies to Nigels Question either have a large source of disposable income, and that money to them is no object or that they think that there is no other alternative other than to shell out whatever is demanded from them.
My view is very simple Free market or not know matter what market is operating a purchaser is the person with the whip.
If he is not prepared to pay for a service or goods, then he walks away, and if enough people did it, then they would have to create a charge thats acceptable, unfortunetely there are to many people who will pay the current fees, as they consider they have no option.
Regards
Bluebeard

 

[vyv_cox]

I disagree. Somebody made the point further up that it all depends on your priorities. Disposable income can be disposed of in any way the spender wishes: it's his choice.

For 10 years I paid 150 pounds per year for a swinging mooring that was used from April to October. To reach it I had to motor a tender for nearly a mile through very tidal waters and sometimes extremely choppy conditions. We often arrived at the boat soaked to the skin. Many times we drove for an hour to reach the sea and turned round to drive away, unable to get to the boat. Some weekends we didn't even go, as we knew from the forecast that we would be wasting our time and money. We had to buy a large tender just to get us to the boat because conditions could be unsafe at times in a small one.

Now we pay rather more than 1000 per year for a marina berth. We are on board virtually every weekend of the year no matter what the weather. In winter we go to do jobs or just to get away to eat, read, drink, in different surroundings. If the weather is good we sail, if not we don't. I haven't used my tender in anger for three years.

It's my choice. I'm no millionaire but I can see the value in spending the money. It will be a difficult choice when the annual fee is 2 or 3 times as much, but I think the decision will be the same.

 

[Guest]

As an East Coast yachtsman, I am disappointed to see the slow but sure intoduction of south coast values with regard marinas. We never tolerated unjustified price increases in berthing and certainly not the desire by companies such as ABP to charge for use of certain rivers !

The problem is one of new blood - Nowadays, it seems the norm is for a novice to yachting to purchase as a first boat, a 35ft Beneteau or similar 'cheap' and large vessel rather than an 18 to 26 footer as was the norm in the past.

These individuals approach the subject believing/insisting yachting be expensive and readily accepting exorbitant berthing fees in marinas designed primarily for sub 30ft vessels from the 70's.

Simple - if ignorants are willing to pay, we dedicated yachtsmen are obliged to join in the ritual money burning or move out to a swinging mooring (see ABP comment)

For me, a major concern is the reluctance to complain about poor service on the basis that there 'is a five year waiting list for berths'.

Either way, get ready to buy a large, hardly used Beneteau for next to nothing as the marina evacuation occurs in the next recession - happy shopping !

 

[roger]

The most we have aid this year per night was 15 quid in Kristiansand. Last nights was about 7 pounds for an excellent marina in Denmark. All scandinavians are appalled when I tell them of the 38 pounds charged by the marina on the Dart (quoted in a recent YM). The Baltic and the Norwegian coasts are cheap, clean, welcoming and very beautiful. Do get out of the UK more.

 

[milltech]

Reference the "free market" respondents, I question how "FREE" that market actually is. My belief is that one company, MDL, managed to acquire enough of the South Coast marina market to control the prices. Not unnaturally every other operator followed suit.

If, for example, Southampton City Council built a 1000 berth marina in Southampton and rented at a reasonable cost, like in France, I think two things would occur. (1) MDL and others would have to reduce their charges, and (2) the marine economy of Southampton would boom due to the available cash berth holders would have to modify repair and refit using local labour.

Everytime something comes up for sale now MDL seem to grab it, one result of their free market is that we no longer have a true one.

 

[ponapay]

My experience is that the Scaninavian marinas and harbours charge considerably less than those in UK.

My 12m deep keel yacht cost for 12 months (6 ashore, with masts stored under cover) £650, with no extras for stepping and unstepping masts or for anything other than showers (on a machine 50p equivalent in a heated shower room).

I had no trouble getting services and found the marina staff to be very helpful and friendly, it was NOT a case of more money for any little thing required.

There is much encouragement of 'do it yourself', includinhg use of fixed mast cranes and mast trolleys.

The whole ethos in Uk seems to be one of squeeze as much out as possible. I will not bring my boat back to UK.

ponapay