Storyline
Well-Known Member
That sounded a good idea if short handed but the problem is that pontoons are of differing heights so using your own bow fender would be a bit hit and miss. For your own permanent berth, Angus' idea sounds ideal.
Marina Berthing... without the stress?
- Thread starter corbu
- Start date
Storyline
Well-Known Member
Good luck and happy practicing
Remember when coming off a pontoon to spend some time thinking what your boat is going to want to do, 9 times out of 10 she will do what she wants so you just have to engage brain, the 1 time is when there is zero wind or current then you can do what you want - there is always some way of getting off.
AlistairT
Member
Go slowly. Keep practising. My mindset is don't worry too much about bashing the pontoon woodwork, it won't do much damage, just try not to bash a neighbouring boat - though as others have said, with your fenders out, drifiting sideways into the boat next to you won't do any harm either. Assess the wind, tide, river current, before you approach.
My Seal 22 has a small lifting fin keel and I usually approach the berth keel down - but she's fairly flat under the stern section and I notice she slides sideways as I turn into my berth. So, I have learned to start my turn about two berths away from my own, knock the outboard into neutral, and kind of slide in unpowered and glide to a halt (or bump the bow onto the woodwork). My neighbour in his Hunter, with deep twin keels, doesn't slide sideways at all so he turns in right at the last moment.
If your plan A isn't going to work, maybe the current or wind aren't doing what you thought they would, try and spot that early and abandon plan A (and tell the crew) in plenty of time. Don't keep going assuming it will work itself out!
Just for fun I made a 'berthing masterclass' illustrated blog post last year, tongue in cheek, I've adapted my tachnique a bit since then but hope this amuses the reader:
http://alistairtyrrell.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/berthing-masterclass.html
My Seal 22 has a small lifting fin keel and I usually approach the berth keel down - but she's fairly flat under the stern section and I notice she slides sideways as I turn into my berth. So, I have learned to start my turn about two berths away from my own, knock the outboard into neutral, and kind of slide in unpowered and glide to a halt (or bump the bow onto the woodwork). My neighbour in his Hunter, with deep twin keels, doesn't slide sideways at all so he turns in right at the last moment.
If your plan A isn't going to work, maybe the current or wind aren't doing what you thought they would, try and spot that early and abandon plan A (and tell the crew) in plenty of time. Don't keep going assuming it will work itself out!
Just for fun I made a 'berthing masterclass' illustrated blog post last year, tongue in cheek, I've adapted my tachnique a bit since then but hope this amuses the reader:
http://alistairtyrrell.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/berthing-masterclass.html
laika
Well-Known Member
Might be obvious but consider carefully where you fit them with respect to the boat's pivot point. My centre cleats are just a little too far forward. Helm over, forward power just about works with a very short line but when the line's a bit longer or if the crew snubs the line from the centre cleat too quickly, the tail end pivots out.
Storyline
Well-Known Member
Just to add a few words about prop wash, this is often talked about in negative terms but try to think of it as your friend. The stern on Storyline kicks sharply to port when reversing so we try to always berth startboard side to and providing there is room it is very easy to swing the boat clockwise off the pontoon. If the wind is blowing onto the port bow this can be a bit much and the bow can come close to the pontoon such is the tight radius of the turn. In this case just reverse with neutral helm or even a bit of starboard on. Reversing is the only way to get the bow across the wind and if you have a decent amount of prop wash you can counteract even a fairly fresh breeze blowing from starboard.
For the same reason, starboard side to is also our norm when coming alongside a long pontoon with boats fore and aft. This is to make getting off again much easier. Going forwards, it is nearly impossible to get the bows through the wind unless you have a decent amount of way on so being starboard side to gives two options in the morning when it is time to leave. If the wind is blowing the bows off (coming from starboard) then it is just a question of letting the lines go, use the engine to stop going backwards and then let the wind do the rest and blow the bows off and then when clear of the boat in front, motor forward. Should the wind be blowing over the port bow it would be impossible to go forwards (without using warps) so in this case use the prop wash and wind in combination and reverse out. The stern will step out nicely but again you have to be careful not to turn too sharply and bash your bows.
So, work out which way your prop wash turns you, remember it and then use it to your advantage. Soon it becomes instinctive and doing 3 point turns in even the narrowest of places becomes achievable without any drama (most of the time !).
For the same reason, starboard side to is also our norm when coming alongside a long pontoon with boats fore and aft. This is to make getting off again much easier. Going forwards, it is nearly impossible to get the bows through the wind unless you have a decent amount of way on so being starboard side to gives two options in the morning when it is time to leave. If the wind is blowing the bows off (coming from starboard) then it is just a question of letting the lines go, use the engine to stop going backwards and then let the wind do the rest and blow the bows off and then when clear of the boat in front, motor forward. Should the wind be blowing over the port bow it would be impossible to go forwards (without using warps) so in this case use the prop wash and wind in combination and reverse out. The stern will step out nicely but again you have to be careful not to turn too sharply and bash your bows.
So, work out which way your prop wash turns you, remember it and then use it to your advantage. Soon it becomes instinctive and doing 3 point turns in even the narrowest of places becomes achievable without any drama (most of the time !).
NorthRising
Well-Known Member
It's the escape that gets me
I usually berth forwards port-side to against the finger, which is conveniently toward the outer end of of an alleyway.
Outboard on transom bracket port side (which is I think where the problem lies as even with no wind the problem occurs).
So to leave the most obvious way it seemed to me to was to reverse out to starboard, and then forwards gear and turn to port to cross the ends of the other alleyways on the way to the marina entrance. The reverse bit is fine, putting her into forward gear is fine, so is putting the tiller to starboard to effect a turn to port. The problem is she won't turn, ok so we are only going slow, more revs, ah now we are heading straight for a boat in front on a longer finger pontoon two up from our berth, still not turning. Ah either full throttle reverse (and try again with same ending) or neutral and turn back to starboard into our own berth.
My solution is simply to reverse the whole way out of the marina into the river - works every time, she goes where I direct her when going backwards...
In the Caledonian canal a couple of weeks back heading out into Loch Lochy the wind was blowing directly into the lock chamber, the lock gates opened and just as we slipped lines to leave the chamber the wind caught her head just on the port-side, and within seconds we were turned to starboard across the lock - brilliant - not. Try and turn to port no she won't do that, lock wall fast approaching, ok turn to starboard and reverse out to the confusion/ amusement of a number of vessels waiting to come into the lock....
Yes it is stressful but the more I handle the boat the better I am at anticipating how she'll behave and more often than not I'm learning what I need to do to to rectify situations.
I usually berth forwards port-side to against the finger, which is conveniently toward the outer end of of an alleyway.
Outboard on transom bracket port side (which is I think where the problem lies as even with no wind the problem occurs).
So to leave the most obvious way it seemed to me to was to reverse out to starboard, and then forwards gear and turn to port to cross the ends of the other alleyways on the way to the marina entrance. The reverse bit is fine, putting her into forward gear is fine, so is putting the tiller to starboard to effect a turn to port. The problem is she won't turn, ok so we are only going slow, more revs, ah now we are heading straight for a boat in front on a longer finger pontoon two up from our berth, still not turning. Ah either full throttle reverse (and try again with same ending) or neutral and turn back to starboard into our own berth.
My solution is simply to reverse the whole way out of the marina into the river - works every time, she goes where I direct her when going backwards...
In the Caledonian canal a couple of weeks back heading out into Loch Lochy the wind was blowing directly into the lock chamber, the lock gates opened and just as we slipped lines to leave the chamber the wind caught her head just on the port-side, and within seconds we were turned to starboard across the lock - brilliant - not. Try and turn to port no she won't do that, lock wall fast approaching, ok turn to starboard and reverse out to the confusion/ amusement of a number of vessels waiting to come into the lock....
Yes it is stressful but the more I handle the boat the better I am at anticipating how she'll behave and more often than not I'm learning what I need to do to to rectify situations.
Storyline
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is it in a nutshell, a boat will always decide what she wants to do so you have to think how to use that behaviour to do what you want (or else take charge yourself and use warps).
ianj99
Well-Known Member
Spare a thought for me, singlehanded on my 36' 10tonne steel long keeled motor sailer with loads of prop walk!
There's not much anyone can do about wind and tide but otherwise I go as slow as possible, get as close to the finger as I can, and then hop onto it as soon as I can. I use a single spring line attached at each end which acts like the reins of a horse so I can control each end and then secure the line to the midway pontoon cleat. I can then attended to the bow and stern lines at my leisure.
With such a heavy old girl, there's none of the zipping into the berth at speed and doing a crash stop that some boat owners can get away with. The prop walk and momentum have put paid to that technique. So its a matter or dipping in and out of gear just enough to maintain steerage, with minimal use of reverse gear.
Backing out is not easy either since there is no way to predict which way she will go - even the prop walk can't be relied upon to help and usually doesn't, precisely when you need it to. So its short bursts with plenty of throttle to turn the stern once clear of the finger.
When the wind is an issue I have not attempted to enter my berth and have waited for it to drop on another (visitors) berth or to leave it if no one is around to give me a hand.
So it is really about knowing how your boat behaves at low speed, practice and not being embarrassed if thing go wrong and you have to abort and re try - we have all been there.
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
+1
A day or a half day, dedicated to marina handling on your own boat, will be worth it's weight in gold. Why reinvent the wheel by practising the wrong thing. Get someone who can do it in their sleep, and who is trained to pass on that knowledge and skill, to show you.
ianj99
Well-Known Member
That's a simplistic answer as every boat handles differently and who is to say that the instructor will be familiar with its quirks?
How would you practice the wrong thing? You'd have to be pretty dumb to do this knowing you were getting it wrong each time!
No instructor can always account for wind and tide in any case.
There is also the danger in that whilst the instructor makes it look easy, your confidence may not improve if you are a slow learner, when all you really need is lots of practice. (passing your driving test, as we know, does not produce good drivers...)
Storyline
Well-Known Member
That was mentioned in a short letter in one the mags in the past couple of months. You always see professional skippers of large work boats doing it. Get way on as fast as possible whilst minimising prop wash.
prv
Well-Known Member
Surely it's the opposite - get lots of prop-wash to turn the boat, while minimising the amount of way you put on so that you don't run into anything.
Works well in Ariam - a brief pulse of almost full throttle then back to neutral, and the boat doesn't really move ahead at all. But a second or so later (saildrive, so it has a couple of metres to travel) you feel the pulse meet the rudder, and the stern thumps sideways as if something had hit it.
Pete
ianj99
Well-Known Member
That's what we mean. I.e. use the engine + rudder to direct the thrust rather than just relying on rudder alone which would require more way on to work.
With my heavy old girl, I can turn using this method (by going ahead) whilst the momentum from backing out of the berth, is still carrying me astern. Therefore I can execute a 90degree turn in half a boats length which would be impossible if I was already moving ahead. By the time I start moving forward, the turn has been completed and I can throttle right back.
With my heavy old girl, I can turn using this method (by going ahead) whilst the momentum from backing out of the berth, is still carrying me astern. Therefore I can execute a 90degree turn in half a boats length which would be impossible if I was already moving ahead. By the time I start moving forward, the turn has been completed and I can throttle right back.
Last edited:
concentrik
Well-Known Member
We always use the centre cleat / engine method. In France, with those 'closed loop' cleats we added a large caribiner clip to the centre line which we used to clip to the loop. As loads of others have said, once the centre line is on and the boat has settled against the pontoon or finger you've got all day.
Marineros: we NEVER give lines to marineros until the boat has settled, as above. Many of them don't seem to understand what's happening and will try to do it 'their way'. Also, you can't always be sure that they are actually marina employees. In any case, we don't like to hand over responsibility for the boat to anyone!
Bow & Stern lines: We often see lines being thrown ashore straight at people. Now we throw at the pontoon instead, which seems to work better. Crew seem more reluctant to throw something AT someone so hold back on the hurl. It's unusual to see anyone catch a line cleanly and find the bit they want quickly. They usually end up with a big lump and struggle to make sense of it. If you throw a coil to the pontoon they can see the bit they need and pick it up directly.
Take a look first: We rarely go straight in unless we've been allocated a berth. Even then we'll often leave the boat on the reception pontoon and walk round to see the one we've been allocated. Sometimes we don't like it - obstructions from adjoining boats mostly - and ask for a different one. Mainly marina staff will be happy to reallocate. If it's possible we do a drive-by to check things out and make the plan, which needs to be simple and unambiguous and understood by all. Then we actually do it on the second time around. We have a backup plan which everyone understands if it all goes wrong - usually reversing away.
No Jumping: Crew know that if they can't step off, they don't get off.
Bow thrusters: The sound of bow thrusters in a marina is very often an indication of imminent entertainment. Heads pop out and people pretend to be deeply absorbed in some minor task while anticipating a deeply satisfying period of schadenfreude. Just our opinion, but they generally seem to get people into more trouble, faster. Of course it could be that boats with bow thrusters are much bigger and therefore more difficult to manoeuvre....
Kettle: Our yardstick for judging how well it all went is how long it took before the (electric) kettle was boiling.....
Marineros: we NEVER give lines to marineros until the boat has settled, as above. Many of them don't seem to understand what's happening and will try to do it 'their way'. Also, you can't always be sure that they are actually marina employees. In any case, we don't like to hand over responsibility for the boat to anyone!
Bow & Stern lines: We often see lines being thrown ashore straight at people. Now we throw at the pontoon instead, which seems to work better. Crew seem more reluctant to throw something AT someone so hold back on the hurl. It's unusual to see anyone catch a line cleanly and find the bit they want quickly. They usually end up with a big lump and struggle to make sense of it. If you throw a coil to the pontoon they can see the bit they need and pick it up directly.
Take a look first: We rarely go straight in unless we've been allocated a berth. Even then we'll often leave the boat on the reception pontoon and walk round to see the one we've been allocated. Sometimes we don't like it - obstructions from adjoining boats mostly - and ask for a different one. Mainly marina staff will be happy to reallocate. If it's possible we do a drive-by to check things out and make the plan, which needs to be simple and unambiguous and understood by all. Then we actually do it on the second time around. We have a backup plan which everyone understands if it all goes wrong - usually reversing away.
No Jumping: Crew know that if they can't step off, they don't get off.
Bow thrusters: The sound of bow thrusters in a marina is very often an indication of imminent entertainment. Heads pop out and people pretend to be deeply absorbed in some minor task while anticipating a deeply satisfying period of schadenfreude. Just our opinion, but they generally seem to get people into more trouble, faster. Of course it could be that boats with bow thrusters are much bigger and therefore more difficult to manoeuvre....
Kettle: Our yardstick for judging how well it all went is how long it took before the (electric) kettle was boiling.....
prv
Well-Known Member
We don't get marineros in this country, but it can be equally problematic letting random passers-by take lines, as they often want to. Can be useful if shorthanded in awkward conditions, but even then it means an unexpected change of plan. With a full crew it's unnecessary and just adds an extra person who hasn't been briefed on what is to happen. A few weeks ago I was sailing with my parents, we were pulling into a finger berth and some guys from a nearby boat kindly came to help (can't fault the good intentions, even if not wanted). My mum passed the bow line to one of them as we were about halfway into the berth, expecting him to walk forward with it and then make it off when the boat stopped. Instead, he immediately rushed aft to the end of the finger, and started trying to make it fast to the cleat there. This would have stopped our forward motion and converted it all into a sideways swing, probably ending with us diagonally across the bay (the next berth was empty). Why he thought that was the right thing to do I have no idea. Fortunately a (reasonably polite) shout and gesture from me got him to stop it and take the line forwards before the load came on.
Pete
Storyline
Well-Known Member
Sorry, misunderstanding, I was meaning in situations when you do not want the effect of prop wash
ianj99
Well-Known Member
With respect, I think the misunderstanding maybe yours. Although I agree when it comes to going astern when it is prop walk that is a big issue for me thanks to the Kiwi prop.
As far as going ahead is concerned, the use of short bursts is to do exactly the opposite of getting way on.
It is used in conjunction with plenty of rudder to change direction without getting way on. The same technique I have to use as does anyone with a heavy slow handling vessel. The idea being that you are not relying on getting enough way on for the rudder to work, but to use the rudder directed prop wash to change direction instead when you are close quarters maneouvring.
Ian
As far as going ahead is concerned, the use of short bursts is to do exactly the opposite of getting way on.
It is used in conjunction with plenty of rudder to change direction without getting way on. The same technique I have to use as does anyone with a heavy slow handling vessel. The idea being that you are not relying on getting enough way on for the rudder to work, but to use the rudder directed prop wash to change direction instead when you are close quarters maneouvring.
Ian
Last edited:
PhillM
Well-Known Member
I always try to take all way off somewhere on the way into the pontoon. I then can see exactly what will happen to the boat and can compensate for it. I find it easier to add speed than to take it off, so starting from very slow give me better control.
I used to hate slipping and mooring and so did my family. So, I spent a few evenings running in and out single handed until I felt more confident. Doesn't stop me stuffing it up from time to time though! But now I know why I stuffed it up and can at least learn from the experience.
Last point - know and accept the limitations of your boat. Mine doesn't do astern well at all, so I'd rather warp round than reverse down an alley. So I don't go where there is not enough space to turn around, etc.
I used to hate slipping and mooring and so did my family. So, I spent a few evenings running in and out single handed until I felt more confident. Doesn't stop me stuffing it up from time to time though! But now I know why I stuffed it up and can at least learn from the experience.
Last point - know and accept the limitations of your boat. Mine doesn't do astern well at all, so I'd rather warp round than reverse down an alley. So I don't go where there is not enough space to turn around, etc.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
Good point but they seem to be going in for this type of fender http://www.marcapelli.com/de/products/fenders/bow-fender-blue which is long enough to allow of a wide range of pontoon heights.
I guess that would be an improvement on the type usally seen in the UK http://www.nautequipe.co.uk/size-1-bow-fender-378-p.asp
In Camaret boat last week a boat berthed next to me with one of these used as a bow fender http://www.marinescene.co.uk/produc...-x-18-x-5cm/?gclid=CK-_zMCt5r8CFWX3wgodL3sAHw
Robert Wilson
Well-Known Member
+1
My dutch friend who maneuvered his 50' ketch into the tight Amsterdam marina told me to practise, practise and practise - for no other reason than to master prop-wash and windage. He advised me to practise onto/off the mooring until I got it right - which meant less embarrassment in the marina!
