Mandatory CO alarms introduced from 1st April 2019

[zoidberg]

You'd expect him to have a fitted a methane detector

Now that's just plain rude....! :encouragement:

FWIW, I'm all in favour of fitting a 'Burnt Toast Alarm' as well as one of those Carbon Monoxide thingies..... and I'm aware they both need a Function Test every now and then.

 

[PaulRainbow]

If you follow the links from this page to to the instruction manual http://www.free-instruction-manuals.com/pdf/pa_1042264.pdf You will find that the CO-9D is not suitable for boats ( page 5)

Can't see anywhere that says it's not suitable for boats, but then i wouldn't, it complies with BS EN 50291-2

Fit alarms approved as meeting BS EN 50291-2; these are best suited for boats. Alarms with life-long batteries are available

If you already have a Kitemarked alarm, tested to BS EN 50291, or 50291-1, the advice is to keep it, test it routinely and when it needs replacing, choose a unit tested to BS EN 50291-2.

 

[matthewriches]

I'd guess it's easier for manufacturers to just say "NO!" to boats as they maybe deem too much to go wrong that could cause a failure and therefore potential litigation against them.

Whilst it would probably be ok, in the event of something happening and the alarm was to blame, you could open yourself up to a personal claim if you were still alive, and the insurance company might not be too chuffed and could also recover costs from you if they had to pay out!

If you follow the links from this page to to the instruction manual http://www.free-instruction-manuals.com/pdf/pa_1042264.pdf You will find that the CO-9D is not suitable for boats ( page 5)

 

[dunedin]

I am beginning to think I am the only one who keeps the companion, rear cabin and heads, hatchs open when on-board. Does everybody seal the cabin up when inside?

Depends on how cold it is! But in fact one material risk is fumes coming in from a boat next door which has bodged installation and runs their installation in harbour a few feet away upwind.

 

[thegasmannick]

i have been fitting honeywell co alarms for a few years now and they conform and i find them very reliable and cell type so no problem with battery`s and risk someone removing them for something (seen this load`s of times on other battery type ( not that much more expensive aswell)
but the bss do have a list of suitable type by make and model and you should never use combined type on a boat due to unreliability in salt enviroment (or thats what im lead to believe and read)
test once a month and watch the light test and alarm and all good

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'd guess it's easier for manufacturers to just say "NO!" to boats as they maybe deem too much to go wrong that could cause a failure and therefore potential litigation against them.

Whilst it would probably be ok, in the event of something happening and the alarm was to blame, you could open yourself up to a personal claim if you were still alive, and the insurance company might not be too chuffed and could also recover costs from you if they had to pay out!

But there is nothing in the manual that says it is not suitable for boats, on page 5 or anywhere else. Both alarms i linked to comply with EN 50291-2, this is the standard that the BSS says we should be fitting now.

In response to a question about one of the alarms (the question was only asked about one of them, although they both comply to the same standards) Fire Angel state ;

The FireAngel CO-9B CO Alarm LED Display is certified to BS EN50291-1:2010+A1:2012
& BS EN50291-2:2010. As part of BS EN50291-2:2010, it can be installed in recreational vehicles and similar premises including recreational craft.

Additionally ;

EN 50291-2

Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises - Part 2: Electrical apparatus for continuous operation in a fixed installation in recreational vehicles and similar premises including recreational craft - Additional test methods and performance requirements

[TD="class: label"]Organization:[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]CENELEC[/TD]

[TD="class: label"]Publication Date:[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]1 April 2010[/TD]

[TD="class: label"]Status:[/TD]
[TD="class: data capitalize"]active[/TD]

[TD="class: label"]Page Count:[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]18[/TD]

[TD="class: label"]ICS Code (Alarm and warning systems):[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]13.320[/TD]

scope:

This European Standard specifies general requirements for the construction, testing and performance of electrically operated carbon monoxide gas detection apparatus, designed for continuous operation in a fixed installation in recreational vehicles and similar premises including recreational craft.

Why VICs felt it necessary to download the manuals and trawl though them looking for a reason to say they are not suitable is a mystery. Some people seem to have nothing better to do.

 

[MonniotC]

But there is nothing in the manual that says it is not suitable for boats, on page 5 or anywhere else. Both alarms i linked to comply with EN 50291-2, this is the standard that the BSS says we should be fitting now.

In response to a question about one of the alarms (the question was only asked about one of them, although they both comply to the same standards) Fire Angel state ;



Additionally ;



Why VICs felt it necessary to download the manuals and trawl though them looking for a reason to say they are not suitable is a mystery. Some people seem to have nothing better to do.

Errrrr. On page 5 there's a picture of a boat with a large cross on it under the heading "Where to install your Detector".
It doesn't say why though.

 

[daveyw]

I dislike mandatory anything, but we fitted a CO alarm on our boat 5 years ago and it's a tiny price for an inobtrusive object that is far more likely to be lifesaving than a dan bouy or liferaft or EPIRB.

Will soon need to be replaced as the sensors only last about 6 years

 

[RichardS]

Errrrr. On page 5 there's a picture of a boat with a large cross on it under the heading "Where to install your Detector".
It doesn't say why though.

That just means that the detector should not be used whilst under full sail.

(If I had ever taken the slightest interest in what it says in manufacturer's manuals, I wouldn't be where I am today :encouragement: )

Richard

 

[awol]

Errrrr. On page 5 there's a picture of a boat with a large cross on it under the heading "Where to install your Detector".
It doesn't say why though.

I find it slightly worrying that a self-proclaimed "expert" is recommending a device for a marine environment that the manufacturer specifically does not. Previous advice on these fora has been to choose a device specified to EN 50291-2 AND for marine use. The "and" is important.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Errrrr. On page 5 there's a picture of a boat with a large cross on it under the heading "Where to install your Detector".
It doesn't say why though.

So there is, i hadn't noticed the picture, i read the text.

That's a bit contradictory, because, as i said earlier, the alarm complies with EN 50291-2, which states it's suitable for "recreational craft".

In response to a question regarding the other alarm i suggested, Fire Angel also state that EN 50291-2, means it's suitable for "recreational craft". The manual for this one doesn't say whether or not it's suitable and doesn't even say that it complies with EN 50291-2, although it does.

So, the standard means it's suitable for boats, Fire angel confirm the standard means it's suitable, the BSS advice fitting EN 50291-2 compliant alarms, but the picture suggests not.

Last time we had a discussion about Co alarms it was said that the reason that some were not suitable for boats were that the batteries could be changed and they might fall out, even though they could be used in caravans or motorhomes. Now we're led to believe that the one i linked to that has removable batteries is ok for boats and the one with sealed batteries isn't.

For me, if they comply with the relevant standards they are suitable, regardless of badly worded manuals or replies on websites such as Screwfix, which could be answered by any dogs body. I spoke to Fire Angel last year and had two completely opposing answers to the same question :ambivalence:

 

[PaulRainbow]

I find it slightly worrying that a self-proclaimed "expert" is recommending a device for a marine environment that the manufacturer specifically does not. Previous advice on these fora has been to choose a device specified to EN 50291-2 AND for marine use. The "and" is important.

I've not proclaimed to be an expert on Co alarms, but i can read what standards state, can you ?

Let me make it easy for you, i've highlighted the relevant parts of the standard.

EN 50291-2

Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises - Part 2: Electrical apparatus for continuous operation in a fixed installation in recreational vehicles and similar premises including recreational craft - Additional test methods and performance requirements

[TD="class: label"]Organization:[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]CENELEC[/TD]

[TD="class: label"]Publication Date:[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]1 April 2010[/TD]

[TD="class: label"]Status:[/TD]
[TD="class: data capitalize"]active[/TD]

[TD="class: label"]Page Count:[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]18[/TD]

[TD="class: label"]ICS Code (Alarm and warning systems):[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]13.320[/TD]

scope:

This European Standard specifies general requirements for the construction, testing and performance of electrically operated carbon monoxide gas detection apparatus, designed for continuous operation in a fixed installation in recreational vehicles and similar premises including recreational craft.

You will note, in particular, that there is no mention of "AND for marine use." That's the point of standards, compliance with this standard means that it is suitable for recreational craft.

 

[JohnGC]

I've not proclaimed to be an expert on Co alarms, but i can read what standards state, can you ?

Let me make it easy for you, i've highlighted the relevant parts of the standard.

Paul, the standard covers devices suitable for portable applications which may or may not include boats. These details are specified in the Kitemark certificate for individual devices.
CO-9B includes boat use.
CO-9D does not include boat use.
https://www.safelincs.co.uk/templat...sheets/3010_CO Alarm Kitemark Certificate.pdf

 

[VicS]

I've not proclaimed to be an expert on Co alarms, but i can read what standards state, can you ?

Let me make it easy for you, i've highlighted the relevant parts of the standard.

This anomaly has cropped up on here before......... several years ago so wont be easy to find

As far as I can remember the reason why this particular alarm is nor suitable for boats is that it was first produced after the introduction of EN 50291-2 but before additional tests specific to alarms for boats were added

Something like that ........... but I don't have the time at the moment to find the previous posts on the subject

The approval for for boats caravans etc is to do with the effects of motion and vibration but I believe on the measuring cell not the batteries.
I don't know off hand what differences there are for testing for suitability for boats compared with caravans etc

 

[awol]

Without spending well over £100 on a copy of the relevant spec (and from experience several more to follow the references) I have difficulty. One difference between -1 and -2 is the addition of a vibration requirement, the details of which I dinnae ken. Is there a salt fog/humidity option that some manufacturers test to - again I dinnae ken. I am, however, reasonably sure there is a reason that a manufacturer specifically crosses off sailboat use in their documentation, even if it is a left-over from a previous issue.
Perhaps if you could summarise the additional test methods of -2 then we might all understand.

 

[PaulRainbow]

This anomaly has cropped up on here before......... several years ago so wont be easy to find

As far as I can remember the reason why this particular alarm is nor suitable for boats is that it was first produced after the introduction of EN 50291-2 but before additional tests specific to alarms for boats were added

Something like that ........... but I don't have the time at the moment to find the previous posts on the subject

The approval for for boats caravans etc is to do with the effects of motion and vibration but I believe on the measuring cell not the batteries.
I don't know off hand what differences there are for testing for suitability for boats compared with caravans etc

I remember a thread some time ago, but can't remember exact details, i thought it was about a different alarm, but may be mistaken. I spoke to two different people at Fire Angel at the time and one told me that anything that complied to EN 50291-2 was suitable for a boat. The other person said the alarm in question wasn't, because the batteries were removable.

Perhaps the Co on a boat has been marinised and needs a special sensor

 

[PaulRainbow]

Paul, the standard covers devices suitable for portable applications which may or may not include boats. These details are specified in the Kitemark certificate for individual devices.
CO-9B includes boat use.
CO-9D does not include boat use.
https://www.safelincs.co.uk/templat...sheets/3010_CO Alarm Kitemark Certificate.pdf

According to that, CO-9X-10 is listed as suitable for caravans, but not shown in the boats section, yet that one is listed on the BSS site as suitable for boats

 

[PaulRainbow]

This anomaly has cropped up on here before......... several years ago so wont be easy to find

"Anomaly" might be the best word here. Looking at the Safe Lincs website here ;

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/boat-camping-travel-caravan-carbon-monoxide-detectors/

Every alarm complying with EN 50291-2 is listed as being suitable for boats, except the C0-9D.

There is also a paragraph there that i've not seen anywhere else, that states ;

CO alarms to BS EN50291-2 are classified as either ‘suitable for camping/caravans/boats’ or just ‘suitable for camping/caravans/motorhomes’.

Although, on the Screwfix website Fire Angel state

The FireAngel CO-9B CO Alarm LED Display is certified to BS EN50291-1:2010+A1:2012
& BS EN50291-2:2010. As part of BS EN50291-2:2010, it can be installed in recreational vehicles and similar premises including recreational craft.

 

[JohnGC]

According to that, CO-9X-10 is listed as suitable for caravans, but not shown in the boats section, yet that one is listed on the BSS site as suitable for boats

The certificate for the product should be the definitive document. The standard covers options which may not be included for a specific device. Everything else is an interpretation.

Of course, we still need to be sure the certificate in question is the correct one. I just picked that link from Safelinks, not the manufactures web-site. I would expect a copy of the certificate to be in the box with the alarm.

 

[PaulRainbow]

The certificate for the product should be the definitive document. The standard covers options which may not be included for a specific device. Everything else is an interpretation.

Of course, we still need to be sure the certificate in question is the correct one. I just picked that link from Safelinks, not the manufactures web-site. I would expect a copy of the certificate to be in the box with the alarm.

A newer one from the manufacturers website, which now shows the CO-9X-10 as suitable for boats. The C0-9D is still shown as only suitable for caravans and motorhomes.