Making your way through dinghy races

[RobbieH]

... Hoisting a shape is right up there with a horse rider wearing the words "caution-horse" on a bib.
...

...and don't forget that many bigger dinghies have similar draught to a small yacht anyway. ...

... Most skiffs, if they end up in that "oh dear, that yacht is in totally the wrong place" will bear down on you, possibly alarmingly fast, and usually go to leeward of you right at the last moment. ...

IMHO yachts can do the following to avoid the situation...

...

-Sail predictably. If a skiff is bearing down on you at speed, it will almost certainly have factored you into the plan. Don't drop the tiller over at the last moment.

My comments related to pre and post racing in a (very) confined channel.

I wasn't seriously suggesting hoisting a day shape.

Dinghies may have a similar draught. They are however mostly not fixed draught. My yacht is fixed draught I do not have the option to raise the centreboard. So I suggest as the dinghies are not racing they could raise the C/B a bit and stay in the thin water. Of course when the channel is 20m wide between long pierheads that is a lot of tacking! The course marshals and safety boats were doing their best towing some dinghies out in strings of 4 or 5 but given the numbers involved it was a drop in the proverbial ocean.

Back to the bit about encountering boats on a race course because I'm learning here ...

So basically with skiffs and their ilk we should forget about close quarters Colregs if we are standon boat because they can only alter course by a few degrees and will usually do so at the very last minute (usually but not always passing astern). If we alter course at what we perceive to be last minute we may well provoke a horrendous collision.
So standon and damn the torpedos is the message but it is pretty scary

If I am giveway boat on port and saw a fleet of fast dinghies bearing down on me I would be highly tempted to heaveto on starboard (if possible given the situation). Both stopping (more or less) and getting myself the right side of standon/giveway. Not at the very last minute as a handful of skiffs with prodders were in spitting distance I hasten to add. Would this be wrong?

Of course given any kind of option I would avoid being anywhere on the race course at all - making a sizeable detour or delaying my start if necessary. I try not to make a habit of sailing through racing fleets!

Thanks for the insight and hints as to how dinghy racers view yachts and how to avoid problems. I've never raced so the ability to understand what the other guy is thinking is very helpful.

 

[lw395]

...
If I am giveway boat on port and saw a fleet of fast dinghies bearing down on me I would be highly tempted to heaveto on starboard (if possible given the situation). Both stopping (more or less) and getting myself the right side of standon/giveway. Not at the very last minute as a handful of skiffs with prodders were in spitting distance I hasten to add. Would this be wrong?

....

My view of colregs is that they apply as soon as you are in sight of one another, and you cannot use 'tactics' to acquire rights in this way. If you want to play that game you'd better start racing!

Best thing would be either tack away well early, or slow down a bit and get the camera out.

 

[Neil_Y]

Assuming there is more than 7knts of breeze, I'm pretty much fixed draught of 1.8m.

I hasten to add, I sail the 14' two man version of these 18's, this is not me!

Yes it is a liftable dagger board but any where other than beating, sending the crew in off the wire to get to the board to lift it involves some planning and team work, if we touch the bottom it's a boat breaker. The last small repair of a 30cm x 20cm tear/hole (from a collission with another dinghy) cost over £1000.00 of carbon and foam core.

I just needed this excuse to share these great photos!

Bear away and head up action in one photo last weekend

It ended in a swim for both of them!

 

[RobbieH]

My view of colregs is that they apply as soon as you are in sight of one another, and you cannot use 'tactics' to acquire rights in this way. If you want to play that game you'd better start racing!

Best thing would be either tack away well early, or slow down a bit and get the camera out.

But how many boats can I see in the Solent on a fine day? If I tack onto starboard I am automatically acquiring "rights of way" over most everybody else on port. So should I stay on port whilst in the Solent? Or perhaps in port ?

If I heave-to on starboard I am taking way off the boat. This is one way of slowing down (under sail) which OP and yourself indicated is a good thing. I'm not just going onto starboard for some tactical advantage.

I could also scandalise the main (rags the sail which the dinghies don't want to do either), drudge an anchor (probably crashed before that happens), take down all sail (completely at mercy of tide etc. then), put the engine on in reverse (losing all ROW) or throw SWBO over the side on a long warp as a drogue. I'm sure there are other creative solutions.

I'm currently thinking that heave to on starboard is one of the better ones but I'm open to other suggestions. I think tack away early is the same solution as heave to - it's just that when I heave to I am losing less ground.

 

[Iain C]

Ah, messrs Kiddle having quite a big moment on Gill...nice!

 

[lw395]

But how many boats can I see in the Solent on a fine day? If I tack onto starboard I am automatically acquiring "rights of way" over most everybody else on port. So should I stay on port whilst in the Solent? Or perhaps in port ?

If I heave-to on starboard I am taking way off the boat. This is one way of slowing down (under sail) which OP and yourself indicated is a good thing. I'm not just going onto starboard for some tactical advantage.

I could also scandalise the main (rags the sail which the dinghies don't want to do either), drudge an anchor (probably crashed before that happens), take down all sail (completely at mercy of tide etc. then), put the engine on in reverse (losing all ROW) or throw SWBO over the side on a long warp as a drogue. I'm sure there are other creative solutions.

I'm currently thinking that heave to on starboard is one of the better ones but I'm open to other suggestions. I think tack away early is the same solution as heave to - it's just that when I heave to I am losing less ground.

I think this question is really getting at something above my pay grade (zero!).
Where do situations begin and end in colregs?

How far away from someone do you have to be to be allowed to make yourself SOV?

In RRS it's all very clear, but I understand that under colregs, it is frowned upon for a port tacker to stand on under the bow of a starboard boat, then tack to become leeward boat 20 seconds before impact?

I'm not sure of the rights of a hove to sailing boat. We often heave to between races and are conscious of being windward boat to anyone beating. In practice, most dinghy sailors will go around a hove to boat where practical, but I tend to think that is a courtesy rather than a right. If you are squeezed between a hove to boat and a bunch of leeward boats, it's usually time not to be hove to any more.

 

[prv]

I'm not sure of the rights of a hove to sailing boat.

The same as a boat sailing on the same tack. Hence why heaving to onto starboard tack is preferable.

Pete

 

[Penton Hooker]

Surely overtaking boat stays clear, assuming that racing dinghies are faster than you or I?

 

[prv]

Surely overtaking boat stays clear, assuming that racing dinghies are faster than you or I?

That's great if you're going in the same direction.

Pete

 

[AntarcticPilot]

.

As has been pointed out, a slow moving yacht is damned near stationary compared to another dinghy sending it downwind. WRT to the skiff thing, it's important people understand that a skiff heading downwind in the groove has VERY little room from for deviation from her course. Go up a bit and you'll be ragging the sails and in with a good chance of a leeward capsize possibly firing both the trapezing crew through the main. Bear away too much and the thing will basically stop and come over on top of you and you will end up under the main in the water, not a pleasant place to be. Most skiffs, if they end up in that "oh dear, that yacht is in totally the wrong place" will bear down on you, possibly alarmingly fast, and usually go to leeward of you right at the last moment. If there's plenty room and no gusts, they may squeeze above you. A good skiff crew will be steering the boat with a combination of heel control, sail trim and tiller inputs, they are incredibly responsive and a last second tweak is nothing to be worried about. Trust me, no skiff crew wants to hit 5 tons of fibreglass at 17 knots...that would hurt!

It strikes me that there is a very basic difficulty when racing fleets share the same water as cruisers.

First, the rules governing such situations are IRPCS, not racing rules. This is quite clear, and covered (I understand) by racing rules.

Second, IRCPS impose a duty to proceed at a safe speed. Rule B.6 states this very clearly.

Rule 6
Safe speed
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.
In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

• By all vessels:
  1. the state of visibility;
  2. the traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;
  3. the manoeuvrability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;
  4. at night the presence of background light such as from shore lights or from back scatter of her own lights;
  5. the state of wind, sea and current, and the proximity of navigational hazards;
  6. the draught in relation to the available depth of water.
• Additionally, by vessels with operational radar:
  1. the characteristics, efficiency and limitations of the radar equipment;
  2. any constraints imposed by the radar range scale in use;
  3. the effect on radar detection of the sea state, weather and other sources of interference;
  4. the possibility that small vessels, ice and other floating objects may not be detected by radar at an adequate range;
  5. the number, location and movement of vessels detected by radar;
  6. the more exact assessment of the visibility that may be possible when radar is used to determine the range of vessels or other objects in the vicinity.

So, you can readily argue that a sailing craft proceeding at such a speed that it is unable to reliably navigate in accordance with IRCPS should slow down to a speed where it can do so, or should not be in proximity with a vessel not covered by the racing rules!

 

[lw395]

It strikes me that there is a very basic difficulty when racing fleets share the same water as cruisers.

First, the rules governing such situations are IRPCS, not racing rules. This is quite clear, and covered (I understand) by racing rules.

Second, IRCPS impose a duty to proceed at a safe speed. Rule B.6 states this very clearly.


So, you can readily argue that a sailing craft proceeding at such a speed that it is unable to reliably navigate in accordance with IRCPS should slow down to a speed where it can do so, or should not be in proximity with a vessel not covered by the racing rules!

Since there have been no collisions, it follows that their speed is safe?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Since there have been no collisions, it follows that their speed is safe?

No, it follows that there have been no collisions. It doesn't say there won't be one tomorrow!

Furthermore, given that a lot of such collisions would cause minor damage or cause the other vessel to take last minute avoiding action, there is a reporting problem; how do we know there have been no collisions or other situations arising?

There is also the issue that an encounter regarded by a racing crew as acceptable might (most emphatically!) not be regarded as acceptable by a cruiser; expectations of clearances etc. are very different.

I will say this is a non-issue for me personally; there is plenty space up on the Clyde, and I've never had this sort of problem. I was intrigued by the logical difficulty of reconciling the requirement of IRCPS with the requirements of racing, especially racing very fast, difficult to control machines in company with other craft.

 

[rob2]

All the talk of "constrained by draught" is fine, but coming up Southampton Water against the tide one is forced to keep to the wide shallowish Weston side - in the channel you'd be going backwards! Making at most 2 knots over the ground, it is not possible to manouvre to any useful effect. One day, coming up to the sailing club, a fleet of dinghies started close inshore around half a mile away and with assymetrics filling were upon us within a minute - I must have covered a cable at most during that time. I was on port tack as were the racing fleet, but the helm of the leading boat shouted "Racing" at me, the stand-on vessel. My reply was of the nature of "Nice day for it. Your choice - your problem".

It strikes me that the biggest problem is that a cruiser has no idea what the racing schedule is, nor should he need to know. I have been nearly mown down by a yacht racing fleet, too. They crossed the line beating on port, so when one of them got excitable about my presence I shouted "Starboard" to let him know I would stand on. The reply from the rest of the fleet was "You tell him!" In the melee before the start I could not tell which was the committee boat and which buoy was in use - just as with the dinghies, there was no way of predicting where they would be going unless you have their club's race schedule to hand.

Rob.

 

[Coaster]

I have no knowledge of or interest in racing. Consequently I wouldn't recognise a start line or know what a committee boat is. Fortunately most of the places we frequent have no boat racing.

However I would like to minimise the risk of collision if I do ever encounter a fleet of racing boats. Do people use sound signals? Should I keep an air horn in the cockpit?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I have no knowledge of or interest in racing. Consequently I wouldn't recognise a start line or know what a committee boat is. Fortunately most of the places we frequent have no boat racing.

However I would like to minimise the risk of collision if I do ever encounter a fleet of racing boats. Do people use sound signals? Should I keep an air horn in the cockpit?

Me too; I really am not interested in racing, so I wouldn't recognize things that are no doubt second nature to racing fleets.

 

[prv]

Do people use sound signals? Should I keep an air horn in the cockpit?

Highly unlikely that dinghy people (and some yachts, come to that) would understand your signals. They'd probably think you were just hooting indignantly, like a car driver, and some might respond by shouting abuse. That's what happened to a motor boat in Chichester Harbour recently, who gave one blast to say he was turning to starboard to avoid the fleet.

Pete

 

[Coaster]

...some might respond by shouting abuse...

Are racing boat people really so unpleasant?

 

[prv]

Are racing boat people really so unpleasant?

Most aren't, but some are. It only takes one.

Pete

 

[lw395]

No, it follows that there have been no collisions. It doesn't say there won't be one tomorrow!

Furthermore, given that a lot of such collisions would cause minor damage or cause the other vessel to take last minute avoiding action, there is a reporting problem; how do we know there have been no collisions or other situations arising?

There is also the issue that an encounter regarded by a racing crew as acceptable might (most emphatically!) not be regarded as acceptable by a cruiser; expectations of clearances etc. are very different.

I will say this is a non-issue for me personally; there is plenty space up on the Clyde, and I've never had this sort of problem. I was intrigued by the logical difficulty of reconciling the requirement of IRCPS with the requirements of racing, especially racing very fast, difficult to control machines in company with other craft.

I know the level of collisions is very low, because I am aware of the date from one of the insurance companies .
I'm not saying it's not a problem, but it's really much less of a problem than some people seem to imagine. I do know a bloke who was famous for 'installing a letterbox in a yacht' but I think that was 1980's Fireball sailors for you!
So it's not a new problem

The biggest risk to a yacht's gel coat in the solent area is self inflicted mooring damage, followed by yacht-on-yacht mooring incidents apparently. Confrontation with racing dinghy doesn't even rate it's own category.

But if you do see a dinghy truly out of control, getting out of the way is going to be appreciated where possible.


Like you I see reconciling the colregs with RRS as an interesting question, you have to add into that the issues of a multi-boat scenario under colregs. How often can you be sure there is no boat you should be keeping clear of?

Then of course there is the logical legal issue that if a jetski is not legally a vessel, then is a skiff? Care to test that in court?

 

[NPMR]

The issue of relative speed is, I think, important. In a slow heavy cruiser your manouverability is far less than a handy racing dinghy. So by the time you have asessed that there is a problem, very often the dinghy has changed course or gone around you.

This was even more noticeable when we tried to enter Douarnanez in Brittany with, literally, hundreds of kite surfers, racing, with the course set slap across the river entrance. We felt we had no choice but to stand on, as it was impossible to see who we could give way to, as the one's to watch could be as much as 150-200 yards away one moment and screaming close past us the next!

One of the shepherding RIBS asked us to "keep left" (which we were very happy to do)but as it was unclear what we were keeping left of, and the river entrance was upon us, we were not sure we had helped very much.