Making an offer on a boat.

[purplerobbie]

I went to have a look at a boat last week and I'm thinking about making an offer but I can't decide.

I value the boat somewhere around 22k 23k the owner has it up for just under £36k. Someone made an offer and had a survey done which has shown high moisture in the hull and rudder. The hull has been resprayed and more or less polished through the teak decks have very little life left in them probably 75% of the plugs are missing. The cushions are worn out. The sails are tired and so on. It has been neglected over the last couple of years.

But it is a good solid boat from a quality manufacture. It has potential.
So do I offer him £20k and hope to meet somewhere about £23k or do I walk away?

The bloke has quite an emotional attachment to the boat and I don't really want to upset anyone.

Rob

 

[Spyro]

I think you have answered your own question. You know what you want to pay, it's a business transaction. You offer what you think it's worth and leave it at that. I don't get this thing with offending owners with low offers. It's your money you decide how you spend it. The seller either says yes or no. If he/she says no you then have to rethink your offer or walk away.

 

[gjgm]

I think you have answered your own question. You know what you want to pay, it's a business transaction. You offer what you think it's worth and leave it at that. I don't get this thing with offending owners with low offers. It's your money you decide how you spend it. The seller either says yes or no. If he/she says no you then have to rethink your offer or walk away.

I agree- with the proviso that if he takes insult, he may not be prepared to have any further discussions.
Whether he is going to respond to an offer 45pct or so below his asking price is debatable. Buyers often seem to think they have the upper hand, but if the seller believes his asset is worth 100, he isnt going to sell it for 55, just as he wouldnt accept £10 note for a £20. He might be wrong in his assessment of what his boat is worth, but unless he changes his mind about that-or the buyer does-nothing is going to happen.

 

[oldsaltoz]

An offer is just that, an offer, no legal binding on either party.

However you should never 'just make an offer'.

Any offer should be subject to survey and sea trial.

Good luck.

 

[Boo2]

if the seller believes his asset is worth 100, he isnt going to sell it for 55, just as he wouldnt accept £10 note for a £20. He might be wrong in his assessment of that his boat is worth, but unless he changes his mind about that-or the buyer does-nothing is going to happen.

Agree completely with this - the whole process of negotiation is about 2 people discussing the value of the boat and trying to find a common (not necessarily middle) ground.

If the buyer thinks the boat worth less than the seller does then the onus is on them to persuade the seller of their case. If the seller can point to many other boats of the same type in similar condition which sold for his asking price then it's pretty pointless making an offer below much below that. Conversely, if the buyer can show that similar boats sell for quite a bit less then they may stand a better chance.

But the OP is going to have to start the process by talking to the seller, otherwise there's no prospect of them both achieving a satisfactory result.

Boo2

 

[Deleted member 36384]

purplerobbie the linked thread refers to making a decision about buying a boat that has osmosis treatment: -

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245575

Within the thread, ignoring the Osmosis stuff is a whole debate on perceptions of vendor and buyer with regards to how they see the price.

Its classic negotiating basics on how each party places value on an asset. Very few people are born negotiators, most dont know how, some learn by experience and some are taught.

First of all you if you want the boat dont talk money. You need to talk to the owner directly about the good points and positive aspects of the boat. This is why you want to buy it. You then need to discuss why you believe his price is too high. Be factual with what aspects that reduce the price in your opinion but dont mention costs. For example you could state "I am sure you have noticed that the teak deck has ................. ."

At some point without mentioning prices you can introduce risk into the discussion but this is subtle: the risk to him holding an over priced boat and the risk to you buying a boat that may have e.g. Osmosis and Teak decks issues. Risk has a cost but you cant price transfer of risk easily e.g. You cant expect him to unload the cost of a full Osmosis job and Teak deck replacement from his price just because you think the whole deck / hull is blown. This is where negotiating becomes fraught with opinion. If you can convince him to share the risk you are doing well.

To just offer a price and expect a counter offer is a waste of time if you like the boat. In my experience the human beings behind the transactions actually want to talk, like to talk and are willing to discuss reasonable positions.

The point about negotiating before discussing price is to get to an agreement on the asset features that are relevant to the sale: in your case the features of teak deck and osmosis treatment, for example, and in his case an understanding of your position. That's all you can hope for because he may have crippling debts and desperately needs the sale price he has fixed! Its important to understand that both parties initially do not know where each party is starting from, hence the importance of understanding a position. Influencing his position is hard without sounding condescending. Anyway you should know where he is coming from, which may not be obvious and he may offer hints, but its not that important in this type of sale, its more about your position. So concentrate on why you want the boat, why its a good boat and what you see are areas of concern to you.

Once you have come to a conclusion with each other, then introduce the price that reflects your opinion. You could state that you want to think more on it and agree to discuss price later. Let it sink in to the vendor.

You need to know in detail what you are going to discuss with him and why. So do your homework before negotiating. Only introduce detail if it helps to strengthen a case. Remember its only a yacht and a nice conversation (as opposed to attempting formal negotiation) with the seller may prove beneficial. If his boat is priced too high and you have walked away because he wont budge, then in a few weeks he may come knocking on your door.

Dont be afraid to talk to him and put your case. As for the teak and moisture readings, that's your call - no comment.

 

[stevebirch2002]

Hi Rob, Your money, your decision. As said before it is a business proposistion. I always wonder why people are worried about offending teh seller - If they dont want to accept your offer then they will say NO, simple.

Dont worry, put your offer in and sit back and relax.. You never know. Or buy another Vega!

Steve B

 

[doug748]

If you trust your judgement.
Make a written offer (through the broker if he has one) "as seen and lies" at 20k.
Gently point out that (quietly, in your opinion) there are a number of points that need to be attended to, as an aside make a modest list of them, and leave it at that.
I doubt you will get it, certainly not now. It will probably make your price, or a bit more, in two years time.

 

[sarabande]

If he has an emotional attachment to the boat, he's likely to be 'helped' to be sympathetic to a low offer if you can persuade him that the boat will be well looked after / improved / polished twice a week, and that he will be welcomed on board for a cup of tea any time he's passing.

He may well have lots of info about the best way to e.g. dry her out, when the masthead lights were last replaced, etc, so it's often useful keeping a link up with the previous owner.

The idea of continuity helps, and may well influence his decision to sell at a realistic price. But don't pay more than necessary because he loves his boat !

 

[Quandary]

Sarabande's advice works both ways, if you buy a boat from some one you trust and repect and have established a good relationship with, it will pay dividends for the buyer in the long run. This is an important strategy particularly for the inexperienced. I am happy to provide after sales service for years to any buyer as long as he treats my old boat right.

 

[gunman]

Totally agree, I am going for a trial in a sonata on saturday. The seller is a member of my yacht club and holds the next mooring to mine. I would trust him and his decsription far more than answering an ad from apolloduck etc.

If I buy the boat I'm sure he would always be happy to lend a hand\give advice in the future. That and he would always be welcome to come for a sail in it.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Make a reasoned argument of what you have noted needs repair and the cost of so doing. State that your offer takes that into account. A genuine seller will then reflect without humbridge. However those factors you have factored into your offer cannot then be taken into consideration following a survey-only new faults you did not observe.

 

[Quandary]

Buying a boat requires patience, make your sensible offer, treat the vendor with respect, tell him what you base it on, whether it is condition or just your own rescources, tell him it stands until you find something else and go away. Make sure he knows you are still looking. Once he has dealt with the timewasters he will begin to reflect on what he really wants to accept and may come back to you for a bit of a haggle. Don't be panicked into a deal, boats are not essential living items and another one will turn up soon.
But a well cared and valued boat can give you that feeling of pride and satisfaction that you will not get from a long neglected wreck, many of us get a real feeling of value and contentment from quality, others get more satisfaction from the deal itself and their kick comes from thinking they have screwed the seller. In a year or two though, the satisfaction of good quality is still there. There is nothing wrong with buying a 'project' but remember that the repairs and improvements will cost at least double what you imagined when you were persuading yourself to buy.
I give this advice from hindsight as a buyer and seller and confess that sometimes I have been far too excited by the thought of possessing something I really wanted to hold out long enough to get the best deal I could have.

 

[Koeketiene]

There is nothing wrong with buying a 'project' but remember that the repairs and improvements will cost at least double what you imagined when you were persuading yourself to buy.

Wise words

 

[Koeketiene]

Ithe teak decks have very little life left in them probably 75% of the plugs are missing.

You don't say what size boat you're looking at, or how much you're willing to spend on the project; but with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight: don't walk away, run!

 

[purplerobbie]

You don't say what size boat you're looking at, or how much you're willing to spend on the project; but with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight: don't walk away, run!

36ft
I think it needs probably 15k spending on it.
Which would consist of
Sorting the decks.
Repainting the hull
New sails
And there a load of small jobs like sea cocks and such which would probably just be like routine maintenance

Rob

 

[Ubergeekian]

I give this advice from hindsight as a buyer and seller and confess that sometimes I have been far too excited by the thought of possessing something I really wanted to hold out long enough to get the best deal I could have.

When I bought Jumblie I wasn't interested in getting the best deal I could. I wanted a deal which was fair to both me and the seller. Maybe that was the best deal, of course.

 

[Koeketiene]

36ft
I think it needs probably 15k spending on it.
Which would consist of
Sorting the decks.
Repainting the hull
New sails
And there a load of small jobs like sea cocks and such which would probably just be like routine maintenance

Rob

Hhhmmm,

We just spent 50K on sorting a 44' boat - this also included a new engine and rigging, but we've still got new sails to go. What's your engine like?

IMHO, you need to put those rose-tinted spectacles away and get quotes for the work before you make an offer. I would guess that for a 36' boat, sorting the deck alone would set you back 15K.

Of course, there are other factors apart from the cost: you might actually fall in love with the boat, ...

Step back, look again, get your figures confirmed and think again - after due consideration you might still want to press ahead or you might come to the conclusion that the whole thing's going to be more trouble than it's worth.

Remember, when it comes to boats: everything costs more and takes longer than you think.

 

[robertj]

Read Paul mckenna's book before nagotiations, a friend of mine has been using Pauls book for years in buying and selling.
Only last week he secured a HR 39 for £12.99

 

[robertj]

I do feel that offence is taken when an owner of a very well looked after craft is is insulted by a chance low offer.
In my paticular case the survey showed more than the seller realised, subsequently a revised offer was accepted.
I have found that in my case a good craft with a buffer in price to renew/upgrade is certainly better.

Good luck