Maintenance Costs

[boomerangben]

Much to my surprise and delight, my wife has been bitten by the sailing bug. She has been looking at boats after admiring a Fulmar and the bug finally took hold after taking her sailing in a 20' Bay Raider.

We are based in the Outer Hebrides, so are looking for a boat that will enable us to sail in slightly windier than average conditions and not slam too much in a Minch chop. The Fulmar is good starting point, although could stretch to a Storm or one of the newer sisters or indeed something else. However the Fulmar's reputation for good handling, good performance, good seakeeping and spacious interior pretty much sums up our needs. (Oh and the need for a cabin heater! - it's a balmy 13 deg C here on a mid August afternoon).

Fixed costs like insurance and marina fees are easy to estimate of course, but what about maintenance? Our budget would mean a boat 15 - 30 years old so careful selection of the right boat is essential, but assuming a reasonably well maintained boat what would forumites expect to budget for annual maintenance on a 33'ish boat? I am reasonably handy with a spanner and paint brush, so would plan to do much of the work myself.

And just of out of interest what would a new/refurbished 30hp engine cost if we did get one that needed a new donk.

I know this is a very open ended question and perhaps a difficult and/or painful one to answer but assistance will be much appreciated.

 

[superheat6k]

I have found the 10% rule for annual spend - maintenance; insurance; berthing works for me.

So for a boat worth ~ £50 k then ~ £5k before the boat actually gets used. This is where you need to be careful with what you buy, and remedial works upon purchase should be added to the purchase price to get this ~value.

Yes there will be years when significantly more cost arises, e.g. as you suggest a replacement engine., or new rigging Assuming you will need one ~20 - 30 HP then a new one will easily set you back £10k, and that excludes the cost of installing it. Therefore also worthwhile considering an overhaul of the existing engine, as the removal and re-install cost will be far less than that to fit a new or replacement second hand engine with different geometry.

 

[maby]

Anyone got a piece of string???

But, seriously, you can make some reasonable estimates - here's a few starting points...

The primary repeating costs are anti-fouling and engine maintenance - they happen every year. Sails and rigging will also need maintenance with periodic replacement, but unless you are taking racing seriously, you can stretch the life of them quite a lot.

You should be able to clean and anti-foul a 33 footer yourself in a few days. The antifouling paint should cost less than £100 and you'll need a variety of brushes and rollers. The most expensive thing will probably be getting it out of the water and relaunched afterwards! Round the Solent, where we sail, the cost of a lift out, space in a boatyard while we do the work and a relaunch could be well on the way to a thousand pounds! Up in the far north, it will be cheaper, but there may be fewer places where you can get it lifted out - you need to check around and get a price.

Regular engine maintenance generally consists of an annual oil change plus filters and, possibly a water pump impeller. Boat engines are generally not very accessible, but you should be able to do all of that in a day. The cost of the parts will be similar to the equivalent for a car - there's nothing special about the oil or filters.

We've never had to replace an engine, but I've heard figures in the region of £4000 for a replacement in a boat of that size. That is a pretty specialist job - apart from anything else, access is so difficult that the task of lifting something that size and weight out would be pretty intimidating.

Sails and rigging need to be replaced periodically. You can do the running rigging - as in the ropes - yourself provided you are methodical. The standing rigging - as in the shrouds that hold the mast up - is more of a specialist task, but it does last a long time. Sails for serious racing are very expensive and don't last long. Basic cruising sails are a lot cheaper and if you take care of them, they can be made to last quite a few years.

If you are looking at a 15-30 year old boat, get a decent survey done before you commit to buying - that way you should be able to avoid unexpected large expenses.

 

[pcatterall]

Our 33 Neptunian is over 40 years old and now in group ownership. We do most of our own work. Basic maintenance including small parts has totalled less than £800 a year but we have a contingency fund of a £1000 a year for major items ( sails/Engine/outboard)
Over the years lots of equipent has of course been replaced and I suggest that any boat over 5 years old will have similar things going wrong that we have.
We have considered what we would do when our trusty 4108 expires and would in fact exchange like for like.
Good luck with your enterprise!

 

[maby]

I have found the 10% rule for annual spend - maintenance; insurance; berthing works for me.

....

I've never understood this figure - our brand new 42 foot boat cost around £250,000 - your rule would suggest £25,000 running cost per annum. A similar size boat, 30 years old, would be worth well under £100,000 but the running costs would probably be higher than for our brand new boat because various bits will be coming to the end of their useful life.

Running costs are far more a function of size than of value - the cost of antifouling paints is pretty much directly proportional to size as is the cost of lifting and launching, and the price of a marina berth.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I've never understood this figure - our brand new 42 foot boat cost around £250,000 - your rule would suggest £25,000 running cost per annum. A similar size boat, 30 years old, would be worth well under £100,000 but the running costs would probably be higher than for our brand new boat because various bits will be coming to the end of their useful life.

Running costs are far more a function of size than of value - the cost of antifouling paints is pretty much directly proportional to size as is the cost of lifting and launching, and the price of a marina berth.

A Fulmar is going to be long in the tooth and in need of a fair bit of spend to get it up to scratch I would guess you could easily spend £10K in the first year of ownership.

 

[doug748]

"Fixed costs like insurance and marina fees are easy to estimate of course, but what about maintenance?"


After accounting for all the fixed costs, routine maintenance is pretty inexpensive. However most boats over 10 or 15 years of age will be ready for some substantial spending - it's a moot point if this is really maintenance or upgrading. Making a stupid guess about a mythical boat unseen, which does not exist yet.....I would say that you could well spend 3k in each of the first two years and then be sorted. The engine business is the big addition, I would not think of a used unit but a new one could be DIY fitted for, maybe 6/7K. Robust figures but nothing really compared to some marina fees.

Plus you will be tempted by optional spends, which you could really do without - like electric anchor winch, radar, new cookers or AIS.

Good boats Fulmars, I have heard Storms can slam so you may want to take further advice on that one.

 

[pvb]

The primary repeating costs are anti-fouling and engine maintenance - they happen every year. Sails and rigging will also need maintenance with periodic replacement, but unless you are taking racing seriously, you can stretch the life of them quite a lot.

You should be able to clean and anti-foul a 33 footer yourself in a few days. The antifouling paint should cost less than £100 and you'll need a variety of brushes and rollers. The most expensive thing will probably be getting it out of the water and relaunched afterwards! Round the Solent, where we sail, the cost of a lift out, space in a boatyard while we do the work and a relaunch could be well on the way to a thousand pounds! Up in the far north, it will be cheaper, but there may be fewer places where you can get it lifted out - you need to check around and get a price.

As you say, a big chunk of the antifouling cost is getting the boat lifted, cradled and re-launched. But there's no need to antifoul every year; if you apply a sufficient amount it'll last 2 full years in the water. That's what I've been doing for many years now. It's important to use decent antifoul - I use International Micron (about 5 litres for my 37ft boat). To reduce the cost even more, I do the job in summer when many marinas have cheap lift-out offers, it's also much nicer weather for painting and polishing.

 

[pvb]

The Fulmar is good starting point, although could stretch to a Storm or one of the newer sisters or indeed something else. However the Fulmar's reputation for good handling, good performance, good seakeeping and spacious interior pretty much sums up our needs. (Oh and the need for a cabin heater! - it's a balmy 13 deg C here on a mid August afternoon).

The sort of money you'd pay for a 30 year old Storm would buy you a much newer AWB, which your wife might find even more appealing. Well worth looking at widening your search. As an example, here's a 33ft boat from 2000 (with heating!) - https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2000/bavaria-31-3523600/

 

[boomerangben]

Thank you everyone for the great advice so far.

PVB, widening the search is a good thing so thank you for the inspiration.

10% including marina fees insurance etc sounds a useful ball park number but also recognise the cost of fettling an ageing boat to our needs. We could offset that by cheaper marina costs up here. Lift out costs are also probably less here too if crane hire can be spread across a few owners.

Valuable advice regarding survey too. As far as engine replacement goes, clearly it is worth looking for a boat that has had a relatively recent engine change.

I like the advice to resist the temptation to get nice to haves! Well directed in my case!!

 

[pcatterall]

A Fulmar is going to be long in the tooth and in need of a fair bit of spend to get it up to scratch I would guess you could easily spend £10K in the first year of ownership.

Not necessarily !! If its been properly maintained and kept up to date.

 

[alahol2]

Over our 16+ years of ownership, and ignoring the first couple of years, our maintenance bill on a 28ft sailing cruiser has worked out at a little less than £1000 per year. This doesn't include lift out/in, storage etc. It does include standing rigging, sprayhood, cooker, 2nd hand winches, 2nd hand windlass, 2nd hand plotter, 2nd hand tillerpilot, 2nd hand NG anchor, 2nd hand heater etc.

'2nd hand' features quite a lot in our budget but it's amazing what you can find if you keep your eyes open. In fact I can't think of any 2nd hand equipment which has yet failed. Please god don't take that as a challenge...

 

[RupertW]

I think it’s a lot about the condition

If ropes, engine, sails, interior, plumbing, electrics are knackered it can still be a great boat for the right price, but you will (as we have) spent a few years spending a fair bit of money and/or time doing it up plus equipping it to what you most need. On a knackered 42 foot boat we have done hundreds of jobs (sadly I’ve got them listed on the iPad) and I think spent at least 70k over 9 years. You won’t have anything like that but it depends almost entirely on the state of the boat and how much extra you want to add to it.

 

[PhillM]

After a full refit, I now spend about £2k per year on maintenance and upgrades. Then every five years around £10k. It’s supposed to be about £5k for the “big” year, but it never works out that way.

24 foot old wooden boat.

 

[superheat6k]

I've never understood this figure - our brand new 42 foot boat cost around £250,000 - your rule would suggest £25,000 running cost per annum. A similar size boat, 30 years old, would be worth well under £100,000 but the running costs would probably be higher than for our brand new boat because various bits will be coming to the end of their useful life.

Running costs are far more a function of size than of value - the cost of antifouling paints is pretty much directly proportional to size as is the cost of lifting and launching, and the price of a marina berth.

As I said - works for me.

However, I would suggest the horrendous depreciation a new boat will see over its first few years of ownership will easily mean you could exceed the 10% level. I can of course understand that is something a new boat owner prefers to spend less time contemplating !

 

[pvb]

However, I would suggest the horrendous depreciation a new boat will see over its first few years of ownership will easily mean you could exceed the 10% level.

New cars can certainly depreciate at high rates, but new boats (in my experience) depreciate rather less.

 

[maby]

As I said - works for me.

However, I would suggest the horrendous depreciation a new boat will see over its first few years of ownership will easily mean you could exceed the 10% level. I can of course understand that is something a new boat owner prefers to spend less time contemplating !

Ah, but the OP was not asking about total cost of ownership - which does include depreciation - was he? The cost of maintenance and berthing is almost entirely proportional to the size of the boat, not the price you paid for it.

 

[Tiercel]

Everyone will rightly tell you to have a proper survey done. Its findings will be the basis for your initial budget.
I would also add that it is also worth having a separate survey done on the engine using a suitably qualified engineer. This should include an analysis of the engine oil.

I have bought 2 substantial cruising boats in my time. The first one, a beautiful Contessa 32, got a very good report from the marine surveyor which sold me on the boat. However, whilst she sailed like a dream, the engine was a disaster.

My next boat was a Westerly Falcon. The marine surveyor pointed out that the engine had just been re-built but recommended a separate engine survey. This found a whole series of issues including salt water ingress to the engine. Subsequently I was able to re-negotiate the whole deal and reduced the price to cover most of the cost of a replacement engine. 2 Years later the original engine started failing and I had to replace it. Thus spending a few hundred quid on an engine survey saved me a few thousand.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

My boat is 11,5m long and lives in a marina in the Med. It is pulled out once a year for anti-fouling, anodes and hull clean/polish - it has a yearly engine service and the rest I do myself.

The total budget for running the boat excluding upgrades and failures is approx €600 per month. On top of this I have spent approx 22k on new dinghy + outboard, new generator, new engine/saildrive, new sails and new electrics/electronics, bimini and sprayhood (new canvas parts) plus many other odds and ends as and when they needed replacing.

So 9 years ownership of a €36,000 ex-charter AWB has cost me approx. €86,800 or approx. €9,6k per year - all in.

It's quite shocking really - but it's been great fun :encouragement:.

 

[PetiteFleur]

We have a Moody 33 mk2, now 40 yrs old. I reckon that I spend roughly £500/year on maintenance, upgrades, replacements etc. As alahol2 says, try 2nd hand bits for replacements, look at ebay, local auction sites, gumtree etc. We bought the boat with a substantial discount on the asking price as it was in poor condition, I had 2 surveys, one by a friend who had done the surveyors course but never started the job so no paperwork; the 2nd survey was professionally done and they were remarkably similar. No engine survey which was a mistake as the engine was knackered, I spent over £500 in the first year trying to fix it and after an unexpected legacy, fitted a new engine myself the following year, inspected by local Beta engineer to get the warranty. Last big expense was new standing rigging last year, just under £1000 and I fitted it myself. I find that the haul out, winter storage ashore and relaunch in the spring is the largest expense each year.
Good luck in your search, Fulmars are good.