Lying Ahull - Bare Pole?

Tim Good

Tim Good

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Ok so I'm readying Adlard's book on heavy weather sailing and a common tactic on his behalf is Lying ahull on bare poles. Can any explain to me exactly this tactic. I'm assuming in his case the windage on the boat is enough for it to create steerage but where do you tie the tiller down? All the way to lee? Surely not?
 
Absent any other mention, I'd assume the tiller was lashed amidships. The problem with hard over to one side is that if you're thrown back on it, it's more likely to break. I don't think he was planning to steer in any particular direction, just let the boat drift as it would, with the crew safe below.

Bear in mind that all the boats in his book (assuming you have one of the older editions like my 1980 one) were traditionally-shaped with long keels. With the possible exception of the very last ones, but they'd still have been conservative by today's standards with skegs and long fins. So his tactics may not be suitable for a modern high-volume boat with a shallow bilge and narrow fin. A modern-style rolled genoa won't help either. Old boats lying to the wind tend to do so with the wind on the shoulder, a little way ahead of the beam. But with hardly anything below the water at the bow, and a lot of windage in the rolled sail above it, modern boats tend to have the bow blow off and end up beam to wind or even further round.

Pete
 
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Good points. I kind of got the impression that the boat was stabilised in some way and didn't roll about causing sea sickness which is why i thoughts the steerage might have been in one direction or the other.
 
I've done it twice in a Bavaria, the windage of the stackpack managing to keep the bow kind of towards the wind so not beam on, wheel adjusted so she would head up with forward motion. We drifted at 2.5 knts about 40 deg off downwind. In the weather you consider this it's going to be quite rough and the boat did do some big rolls as waves broke over her, but it was possible to rest, eat and stay safe. The cooker was not an option most of the time and the crew were scared (so was I the first time, but don't tell them)

Different boats behave differently and in this sort of weather you often try different approaches and see what suits the boat best whilst hanging on for dear life and getting very wet! it will depend on sea state as well as to what's best. You use the tactic that works best for you out of... running with it, heave to, trail stuff to slow the boat, deploy sea anchors to either hold stern or bow into the waves.
 
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northcave said:
Ok so I'm readying Adlard's book on heavy weather sailing and a common tactic on his behalf is Lying ahull on bare poles. Can any explain to me exactly this tactic. I'm assuming in his case the windage on the boat is enough for it to create steerage but where do you tie the tiller down? All the way to lee? Surely not?
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Ideally, bow should be kept towards any waves as the strongest part of the boat, rather than let the bows pay off, with all the seas breaking into the cockpit.
 
Once seas really start breaking heavily lying ahull in a modern beamy fin keeler it gets hairy fast - and you are at risk of being rolled. Read an up to date copy, not an old edition - there is much more experience out there now as more boats are around particularly ocean racing, also the old books refer mainly to older hull types.
 
All I've ever experienced is "fore-reaching" in 65kn in a medium-spec Froggy AWB. We popped on the storm-jib and backed it (stormjibs are only any good for passing safety inspections- take my word for it: they are as much use as sliding-doors on a submarine when it comes to maneuvering).
I stuck the helm over and sort of tried to sail against the backed jiblet.
We eventually made the heady speed of 1.6kn at an angle of 135 to the wind (approx), and had bone-breakingingly sore beatings delivered to the fore-quarter of the boat, but it felt a whole lot safer than bare poles with no way on.
 
Very boat-specific. Some boats will head up to a similar attitude as being hove-to, others will try to lie beam on and you don't want to do that. With sea room available you can run off downwind under bare poles with most boats, probably a better option.
 
I can "hove to" with the genoa rolled in almost fully and the helm put over to back it ( The boat maintains about 60 deg to the wind) but when the wind gets up even more and the waves start cresting its scary.
So now just put the drogue out with all the sails stowed (Genoa rolled up really tight and the main tied tight to the boom ). Rudder locked off amidships. Get down below and ride it out making less than 1 knt.
 
off the stern so you still have slight forward speed to avoid broaching. The turbulence created by the drogue also seems to stop the crests coming onto you from behind.
 
Among other considerations, there is the question - raised in one or more editions of 'Heavy Weather Sailing - of ensuring your drogue is secured to bits on the back end of the boat that are well robust enough for the job, hour after hour. And chafe. How are you going to manage chafe....?

Several accounts mention lying to a sea-anchor/drogue of sorts in relative comfort - until the rode chafed through and the gear was lost. Next.....?
 
oldbilbo said:
Among other considerations, there is the question - raised in one or more editions of 'Heavy Weather Sailing - of ensuring your drogue is secured to bits on the back end of the boat that are well robust enough for the job, hour after hour. And chafe. How are you going to manage chafe....?
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The gold standard of course is a pair of substantial stainless steel straps on the topsides, just below the gunwale, right aft. Several large bolts through the straps, plus bedding/bonding. The aftermost four inches or so extend beyond the transom, with a hole that you can put the pin of a large bow shackle through. Basically, an aft-facing chainplate. Strong enough to lift the boat, no chafe because there's nothing for the bridle to make contact with.

It would take serious ocean plans (or paranoia) to fit those just in case, though. Someone asked for advice on making them a couple of years back, but I've never seen a set in person.

Pete
 
As said before, yachts of different design behave very differently. You have to play with set-up on your own boat in different conditions to really know what to do. Of course you should read about other peoples experiences too .... Sydney-Hobart, Fastnet, Dashew's 'Surviving the Storm' (probably the best), and many more.

Going bare poles and attempting a hove-to position has lots of disadvantages over hoving-to under much reduced sail, rolling probably being the most significant.

Going bare poles and sailing a downwind course, keeping maneuverability is a much better option provided you have sea room.

The proper hove-to position is so that you make no way through the water ..... well not fore or aft. What you should be aiming for is sideways drift to create a wake (low pressure zone) to windward onto which the threatening waves will tend to collapse. I've used this in most boat types and in moderately severe conditions.

With severe conditions threatening, I have always managed to either sail out of the worst of the weather or found a safe haven.

I presently own a Catana 40 ..... an early fast model .... and well built. Last November? we had seven days notice of Hurricane Ivan hitting Fiji, so we sailed from there to New Zealand ..... arriving with a few days to spare before Ivan hit our friends down in Fiji. There is a reason I like yachts that sail well!!!
 
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We hove to under bare poles in 40+ knots for several hours once in big seas. I lashed the helm hard over and we lay maybe 140 - 150 degrees off the wind. It was remarkably comfortable; we drifted downwind at about a knot an hour. Boat is an Albin Vega, 27ft, long keel with cut away forefoot.

It was worryng at the time but I would definitely do it again in similar conditions if I had the sea room.

- W
 
oldbilbo said:
OK. Good to hear. What in detail would you do exactly the same, and what would you do differently....?
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What I would do next time is try harder to emulate SWMBO, who removed her wet clothing, got into her sleeping bag and began snoring. I on the other hand started reading up what was likely to happen if we were struck by lightning and generally worrying abut things I could do nothing about.

The next day we had a mad five hour motor-sail hard on the wind in a F7 and huge seas . . . shortly after we made port it had blown itself out. Next time I would just stay hove to longer and wait for it all to calm down.

Learning to relax at sea in bad weather and let the boat take care of itself and you is a skill I would really like to develop. Sometimes doing nothing is the hardest thing.

- W
 
webcraft said:
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We hove to under bare poles in 40+ knots for several hours once in big seas. I lashed the helm hard over and we lay maybe 140 - 150 degrees off the wind. - W
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I may be misunderstanding, but surely if you're lying 140 - 150 degrees off the wind you are pointing obliquely downwind and you're not hove-to at all?
 
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