LTD companies/Trading as or are they!!

[steveeasy]

I was recently sold something. The invoice trading name did not have any reference to LTD company. Anyway prior to issuing a summons I checked all the documentation and it was not a limited company. the website has no reference to a limited company.

The defendant has filed an acknowledgement of service but has told the court the correct trading name is XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ltd.

My question.
Surely if you are a LTD company you have to tell those you trade with you are a LTD company. Can a limited Company operate without saying it is LTD ie no reference on website, invoices and such like, then when they get sued say they are LTD.

My view is I traded with a sole trader and that is who I have issued a summons on.

Any advice appreciated.

Steveeasy

 

[europe172]

I was recently sold something. The invoice trading name did not have any reference to LTD company. Anyway prior to issuing a summons I checked all the documentation and it was not a limited company. the website has no reference to a limited company.

The defendant has filed an acknowledgement of service but has told the court the correct trading name is XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ltd.

My question.
Surely if you are a LTD company you have to tell those you trade with you are a LTD company. Can a limited Company operate without saying it is LTD ie no reference on website, invoices and such like, then when they get sued say they are LTD.

My view is I traded with a sole trader and that is who I have issued a summons on.

Any advice appreciated.

Steveeasy

I guess trading standards might be able to answer, at one time letterhead had a requirement to include a company number as did web sites but as far as I know that legal requirement was dropped

 

[europe172]

I guess trading standards might be able to answer, at one time letterhead had a requirement to include a company number as did web sites but as far as I know that legal requirement was dropped

Although this web sites suggests that they should include details
What are the Legal Requirements for my Business Website?).

 

[steveeasy]

Although this web sites suggests that they should include details
What are the Legal Requirements for my Business Website?).

Thats what I assumed was correct. or the trader is misleading those he is trading with omitting his business title.

Steveeasy

 

[B27]

It's complicated.
The fact that a business website falls short of some requirements may not mean the liability passes to some other person.
Is this person who you thought was a sole trader actually a director of the company in question.

Who did you write the cheque to? These days it will be some other form of payment, but that can be an indication of who your contract is with ,the company or the individual.
I once got a judgement against both a company and the individual, but I still never got the cash, company liquidated, individual disappeared with some scary characters looking for him. It was not a huge sum and I had better things to do than pursue it.

 

[steveeasy]

Turn it arround. Why would someone who is defending a claim direct the court that the name is incorrect and it should be Ltd.
They would be happy the title was incorrect. It would be thrown out.
I paid by card I’ll check my bank account. But no reference to limited on anything at all. The invoice was to a third party finance company. They don’t trade with a ltd company either.

Don’t think you can covertly operate then play the ltd bit to avoid personal liability can you.

Steveeasy

 

[B27]

There's loads of websites out there without the required info about who the trader is.
It's just not enforced.
The penalties for that seem to be small and irrelevant to a civil case you have against whatever entity you traded with.
My experience is a fair while ago, I'd suggest getting proper advice if it's an amount worth pursuing.

Have you looked the person up at companies house to see what companies he is a director of?
There may be a mess of present and past companies.

One thought is to consult a firm of debt collectors, they know the game, they do it for a living.

 

[steveeasy]

Well the fact is it should not be complicated. It’s only made complicated by firms not stating what the trading status is.

I know the person trades under a business name that is not ltd. I also am aware he is a director of a limited company.
He invoiced one of the biggest finance companies in the country and they stated his title was not Ltd. His invoice to them was not limited. His invoice to me was not limited.

What I do know if I was being taken to court and the business title was incorrect I’d leave it like that as irrelevant as it might seam it would get thrown out. He wants to change the title for good reason. To avoid personal liability and CCJ against his name.
The question is if you are a ltd company should trade under that title. I suspect one should. If the don’t it could potentially be misrepresentation. Of some type.

Steveeasy

 

[Poecheng]

In the small claims court a slightly incorrect name of the defendant will not amount to any defence and they will be expected to correct it and not make a fuss. If they make a fuss and you have to seek permission to amend( and you will get that permission if the mistake is understandable- even more so if brought about by the defendant’s conduct) then claim the costs of the application from them at the end.
Being an arse doesn’t work in the small claims court. Steve let me know the details by PM if you want

 

[bignick]

You may also find that his ltd company has legal cover on its insurance. He may not have personal insurance for legal costs.

 

[steveeasy]

My questions are simple ones. Should you know who you are trading with. should the business state if he is LTD or not ?

In this instance his invoices, website, and the finance company he was in contract with believed he was not a Limited company. He may well have one but he was not trading as one.

This trader offered a warranty and then refused to provide any written details of the warranty to avoid personal liability of a claim. Withholding such detail is a breach of the 2015 consumer rights act. This is what I am sueing him for. Is it correct he then states he is trading under the LTD company?
Steveeasy

 

[bignick]

For me, the clue is in who the finance company believe they were dealing with. If the trader paid the finance company from an account that was personally owned by him, rather than the Ltd company, then I believe that he was trading as an individual.

Since this appears to relate to financial services, I think I would be inclined to speak to the financial services ombudsman and get their opinion before I submitted any court proceedings.
Financial Ombudsman Service: our homepage

If the trader makes a living selling financial services, then an investigation into his actions by the Financial Services Commission should worry him far more than the small claims court.

 

[steveeasy]

For me, the clue is in who the finance company believe they were dealing with. If the trader paid the finance company from an account that was personally owned by him, rather than the Ltd company, then I believe that he was trading as an individual.

Since this appears to relate to financial services, I think I would be inclined to speak to the financial services ombudsman and get their opinion before I submitted any court proceedings.
Financial Ombudsman Service: our homepage

If the trader makes a living selling financial services, then an investigation into his actions by the Financial Services Commission should worry him far more than the small claims court.

Yes he does. I can change his treading title thru the court, but I am intrigued how a trader can operate without making it clear his trading title or status. as a consumer we need to know who we are trading with to understand the level of risk and who we are actually pursuing if required.

Steveeasy

 

[bignick]

I agree that it should be 100% transparent.

The sale of financial services is strictly controlled and regulated by the FSC. You have to be registered and approved by the FSC to sell products. Consequently, I’m pretty sure that the Finance Company will have a clear understanding of the legal entity which they are doing business with. If they believe they were not dealing with a Ltd. Company then I would take their word as gospel.

 

[steveeasy]

Actually I dont think the actual finance company care too much. I asked them and they said No, but it all depends who you ask. The issue for me is who was I doing business with. This comes back to my original question, Does a LTD company have to state they are a limited company ?. or can they trade however suits them and when they wind blows another way, they say its LTD to avoid personal liability. Again nothing in the world is ever black and white.

Steveeasy

 

[benjenbav]

Not at all clear about the nature of your loss. But if, as I understand it, the selling business is invoicing through a factor (so that the invoice was payable direct to a finance company) you might well surmise that the selling business is unlikely to be sitting on huge cash reserves.

 

[steveeasy]

Not at all clear about the nature of your loss. But if, as I understand it, the selling business is invoicing through a factor (so that the invoice was payable direct to a finance company) you might well surmise that the selling business is unlikely to be sitting on huge cash reserves.

Its no big deal, but I got done over and in this instance thought id address the matter. the finance company have agreed to settle my claim in full now but ive not withdrawn the claim as yet. the dealer does not know the other defendant is settling the claim.

It just intrigues me that in 2023 and we dont know who we are really trading with. utter madness given thats the easy bit of a transaction.. of course if it is regulated then he would have been acting unlawfully. I dont know hence the question.

Steveeasy

 

[B27]

Actually I dont think the actual finance company care too much. I asked them and they said No, but it all depends who you ask. The issue for me is who was I doing business with. This comes back to my original question, Does a LTD company have to state they are a limited company ?. or can they trade however suits them and when they wind blows another way, they say its LTD to avoid personal liability. Again nothing in the world is ever black and white.

Steveeasy

Did you get a VAT receipt? With a VAT number on it?

I'm not sure where the finance co comes into it, I'd suggest giving the full story to someone like the CAB or a solicitor or paralegal who knows the relevant law.

It's quite common to buy things from businesses and not really know who you're dealing with, the fuel station at the bottom of the road trades as a BP garage but actually it's two blokes running a franchise or something.

 

[Beneteau381]

I was recently sold something. The invoice trading name did not have any reference to LTD company. Anyway prior to issuing a summons I checked all the documentation and it was not a limited company. the website has no reference to a limited company.

The defendant has filed an acknowledgement of service but has told the court the correct trading name is XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ltd.

My question.
Surely if you are a LTD company you have to tell those you trade with you are a LTD company. Can a limited Company operate without saying it is LTD ie no reference on website, invoices and such like, then when they get sued say they are LTD.

My view is I traded with a sole trader and that is who I have issued a summons on.

Any advice appreciated.

Steveeasy

I did one of those, I named the chancer, the turd tried to dodge it by saying he was a limited company. I pointed out the email he sent me at the beginning of our business relationship with his name only at the bottom. He was quite sarcastic until I pointed this out and that his name and posh address would be in the court judgement. He crapped himself and the money was in my account within a couple of hours. it was for a grand.

 

[steveeasy]

Did you get a VAT receipt? With a VAT number on it?

I'm not sure where the finance co comes into it, I'd suggest giving the full story to someone like the CAB or a solicitor or paralegal who knows the relevant law.

It's quite common to buy things from businesses and not really know who you're dealing with, the fuel station at the bottom of the road trades as a BP garage but actually it's two blokes running a franchise or something.

I purchased a car for my son through a finance company. So in essence the finance company bought the car. The dealer provided the warranty. The car was poor so I sued for breach of contract.. No VAT reciept from the dealer to finance company.

Steveeasy