LPG piping - unsafe?

[peters.carl]

I have recently learned that my boat has a far less than ideal LPG system. Quite unsafe. Can you suggest what would be a better system? Should I use copper piping?

Currently I have an LPG bottle situated in a locker at the stern of the vessel with a drainage hole at the bottom which drains overboard. The regulator is then connected to flexible LPG gas piping which runs about 3m forward inside the hull to the cooker. It is attached then directly to the cooker. There is no shut off valve inside the boat. There is no braided stainless line at the cooker. I want to add these components obviously but wonder if it would be best to have copper piping inside the hull rather than flexible LPG hose?

 

[dash300]

FWIW my boat safety inspector required me to change my braided gas pipe as he said it was impossible to see if the rubber inside had perished or not. Made sence to me.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Had this discussion recently with Dave Somebody from Gas Safe Marine. His take:
Flexible hose from regulator to wall of locker. At locker wall a connection to copper. Hose must be in date.

Copper from locker wall to proximity of cooker where it ends at an on/off tap accessible when cooker is on. The tap also has a take-off connection for manometer testing. If possible copper is an unbroken length. If not where breaks are necessary they are made with compression joints. Copper is protected from damage when passing through bulkheads by running through short lengths of reinforced plastic 'water' hose.

Copper from tap to exit point behind cooker. Flexible from exit point to cooker connection. This flexible is protected from damage by running inside reinforced water hose.

Hope it helps.

 

[Twister_Ken]

PS no armoured hose for same reasons as above.

And it's Gas Check Marine not Gas Safe.

 

[sailorgirl]

FWIW our installation is regulator & rubber tubing to copper pipe in the gas locker (port aft), the copper pipe runs several meters around/across the boat to the galley (starboard midships) through a manual tap/cut off switch to the back of the cooker. A short length of rubber hose then connects to cooker, this was originally mesh covered but we were advised this "did not conform to current regulations" when we first tried to replace it several years ago.

We change the rubber tubing from time to time but its a beast of a task as it takes umpteen hands to hold the gimbles in the right place whilst lifting the cooker out. I seem to recall that the rubber piping has an expiry date printed on it and we had a real job trying to get some with a reasonable lifetime the last time we changed it.

In 11 years its given us few problems except the actual replacement task!

BTW who turns their gas off once they've finished using the cooker? Do you do so at the cut off switch or the bottle (or both)? And do you have a gas alarm fitted?

 

[ostell]

PS no armoured hose for same reasons as above.

And it's Gas Check Marine not Gas Safe.

And very helpful they are too. I presume you mean these people.

 

[pvb]

I have recently learned that my boat has a far less than ideal LPG system. Quite unsafe. Can you suggest what would be a better system? Should I use copper piping?

Currently I have an LPG bottle situated in a locker at the stern of the vessel with a drainage hole at the bottom which drains overboard. The regulator is then connected to flexible LPG gas piping which runs about 3m forward inside the hull to the cooker. It is attached then directly to the cooker. There is no shut off valve inside the boat. There is no braided stainless line at the cooker. I want to add these components obviously but wonder if it would be best to have copper piping inside the hull rather than flexible LPG hose?

Contrary to the advice you've received, all-hose LPG installations are not necessarily considered to be dangerous. If you read Section 7 of the Boat Safety Scheme recommendations, you'll see that all-hose installations are allowed under various standards. However, it's stressed that all-hose systems can be more prone to accidental damage.

As others have said, the use of braided flexible connections isn't a good idea, and if someone has "advised" you to fit one, you might need to wonder about whether their advice generally is worth heeding.

 

[Tranona]

Gas installations were covered in an article by Dave Stoppard in PBO a couple of issues ago. For piping all flexible is allowed, but if I remember rightly only up to a maximum of a metre.

I have just had my gas system replaced in my 10 year old Bavaria and it is much the same as Ken described, except the continuous copper pipe from the gas locker bulkhead fitting to the shut off valve near the cooker is run in plastic pipe and clipped every 300mm. Had to remove all the trim down one side of the boat to give access for the continuous pipe.

There are two schools of thought on armoured pipes - both are acceptable under the standard. Calor recommended armoured on my installation because there is a raw edge to the panel behind the cooker.

 

[prv]

In this country the preferred approach is to use copper tubing as it's thought to be more resistant to damage. In the US, the preferred approach is to use a single length of rubber tubing from regulator to cooker, because they're concerned about joints leaking. They typically use an electrically-controlled solenoid to turn off the gas at the bottle from a switch by the cooker.

Pete

 

[pvb]

Gas installations were covered in an article by Dave Stoppard in PBO a couple of issues ago. For piping all flexible is allowed, but if I remember rightly only up to a maximum of a metre.

The max 1 metre applies in the BSS to flexibles connecting appliances to fixed pipework.

There are two schools of thought on armoured pipes - both are acceptable under the standard. Calor recommended armoured on my installation because there is a raw edge to the panel behind the cooker.

It rather depends on whether you need to comply with the BSS, which states "All LPG hoses must be accessible for inspection along their entire length. All LPG hoses must be marked to BS 3212 type 2 or equivalent." Braided hoses tend not to meet these requirements.

 

[westernman]

BTW who turns their gas off once they've finished using the cooker? Do you do so at the cut off switch or the bottle (or both)? And do you have a gas alarm fitted?

We do. Both. Always. We have an electric solenoid at the bottle end, and a manual tap in the galley.

 

[VicS]

We do. Both. Always. We have an electric solenoid at the bottle end, and a manual tap in the galley.

Your solenoid valve is not a substitute for closing the bottle valve.

Is it even on the HP side of the regulator?

A tap local to the appliance is only required to be fitted when there is more than one appliance on the system.

 

[westernman]

Your solenoid valve is not a substitute for closing the bottle valve.

Is it even on the HP side of the regulator?

A tap local to the appliance is only required to be fitted when there is more than one appliance on the system.

The solenoid is of course on the LP side.

You are right - but it mitigates the effects of a possible leak in the pipe work between the gas locker and the accommodation area inside the boat.

The gas locker will drain overboard.

I would guess that the area most likely to leak in a reasonable gas installation is the connection to the bottle. You have little control over what you get when you change your bottle. Hence the utmost importance of a self draining gas locker.

 

[30boat]

I'm reverting to gas now that my Wallas hob has sooted up again and I can't face cleaning it up any more.The man at the Camping shop gas advised me to use propane hose because it is fiber reinforced.It still must be renewed every four years.

 

[Boo2]

Currently I have an LPG bottle situated in a locker at the stern of the vessel with a drainage hole at the bottom which drains overboard. The regulator is then connected to flexible LPG gas piping which runs about 3m forward inside the hull to the cooker. It is attached then directly to the cooker. There is no shut off valve inside the boat. There is no braided stainless line at the cooker. I want to add these components obviously but wonder if it would be best to have copper piping inside the hull rather than flexible LPG hose?

From the Boat Safety Scheme Guide section 7.6 :

Notes – LPG system shut-off valves may be cylinder valves.
Systems with clip-on regulators do not require an additional system shutoff
valve.

I was told by a boat registered gas safe fitter that the braided ss ("armoured") hose is required if the cooker is mounted on gimbals, and in fact when I took off the orange hose (which had been passed as OK by my surveyor) I found that it was damaged, apparently by being trapped between cooker and bulkhead as the cooker swung.

The BSS also recommends copper pipe instead of hose wherever possible so I would definitely change that, but it seems the shut off on the reg is acceptable and to my mind preferable if you always turn it off while the cooker is lit so as to burn all the gas in the pipe.


Hth

Boo2

 

[pvb]

... but it seems the shut off on the reg is acceptable and to my mind preferable if you always turn it off while the cooker is lit so as to burn all the gas in the pipe.

Intriguing. Do you think all the gas in the pipe does burn? Where does the oxygen come from?

 

[prv]

Intriguing. Do you think all the gas in the pipe does burn? Where does the oxygen come from?

The air. It doesn't burn in the pipe, it burns in the burner.

Obviously all the gas in the pipe doesn't burn, since that would have to leave a vacuum in the pipe. But enough of it burns that the pipe is no longer under pressure, which must reduce the likelihood (and severity) of a leak.

Pete

 

[VicS]

The man at the Camping shop gas advised me to use propane hose because it is fiber reinforced.It still must be renewed every four years

Are you sure you have not misunderstood, AFAIK the same hose is used for butane and propane.
BUT
There is high pressure hose and low pressure hose. The high pressure is reinforced and is orange, The LP is not reinforced and as far as I know is black.

Camping shops like to stock only one type...so they keep just the HP type

The hoses should be replaced at 5 years from the date of manufacture which is printed on the hose so check the date on any you buy!

 

[pvb]

Obviously all the gas in the pipe doesn't burn...

I know that, but Boo2 clearly doesn't understand, which is why I asked him the question.

 

[Snowman]

in holland and here the regs are a regulater on the bottle with a orange HP hose to the locker bulkhead from here to tap at rear of cooker a copper pipe with stantions every 300mm
From the tap to the cooker a flexible HP hose renew avery 5 years-see date stamped on the hose