GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
Don't know what UK prices are but we filled up in Portugal today at £1.13/L
Looks like red diesel trouble ahead
- Thread starter john
- Start date
Don't know what UK prices are but we filled up in Portugal today at £1.13/L
KAL
Well-Known Member
Typically £1.35/l at petrol stations, more at fuel barges.
westhinder
Well-Known Member
Here we go again
+ ZZZZZzzzzzz....
maby
Well-Known Member
I will agree that they should have enforced the rules - but I get shouted down every time I say so.
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
And given the fact that most marinas now sell 60/40 red at the same (or a higher) price than the fully taxed white you buy at a petrol station they have no interest in seeing the current situation change.
Well done RYA & BMF.
The difficulties are only faced by individuals who choose to take their boats abroad. Those of us who choose to spend our money in our own country, don't face any difficulties at all.
What a very narrow-minded POV.
For some/most of us the whole point of owning a boat is the be able to venture abroad - whether merely crossing the Channel or beyond.
When I want to visit places in this country, it is almost always cheaper, faster and more reliable to drive there.
Burnham Bob
Well-Known Member
It's actually a case of poor legal drafting. EU rules equate marked diesel with diesel sold at a lower rate of duty - no ifs or buts. If it's marked it's fuel obtained at a lower rate of duty. Surely wording such as 'leisure boats may not use marked diesel for propulsion unless proof can be given that the full rate of duty has been paid' could have been incorporated - or HMG could lobby for its addition as an amendment.
I have a mate who is a high powered lawyer and he gets irate when rules and regulations or contract discussions throw up issues like this. Most other lawyers seem to want to stop proceedings when they see a problem - he says his job is to make sure proceedings don't stop becuase of a legal problem!
I have a mate who is a high powered lawyer and he gets irate when rules and regulations or contract discussions throw up issues like this. Most other lawyers seem to want to stop proceedings when they see a problem - he says his job is to make sure proceedings don't stop becuase of a legal problem!
haydude
Well-Known Member
How come one can buy road white diesel in Luxembourg at 1.10 Euros per litre, which is less than red diesel? The solution would be to charge a fair duty on all diesel, not just red and scrap red altogether!
Instead here our PM will find another execuse to blame the EU for his leadership failures!
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Don't think that is the problem. The INTENTION of the EU Directive is diesel for leisure boats should pay the full rate of duty and the marking is there to ensure that it can be policed. HMG has not followed that intention but introduced the split duty rates for marked fuel. Their intention was that marked diesel should not be used for propulsion, but as a proportion might be used for heating or power generation so sanctioning the split.
Their argument, now to be heard in court, is that this wording complies with the Directive. The EU disagrees.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
I think the EU will win and I can't understand the incompetence of UK gov. Lets face it, the 60/40 split is a farce as most boats don't use any fuel for heating or cooking. Much simpler if all marinas supplied white and commercial users claimed the duty back.
NormanS
Well-Known Member
Speak for yourself. All our heating, lighting, electrical systems, and hot water, is derived from diesel. I find that my sailing range is seriously reduced if I have a trailing cable from home.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
I'm not "speaking for myself" I have diesel heating. However, the majority of boats do not have Ebers or diesel cookers. As for your electrical systems, time you went green and got some solar panels, then you could afford to run the engine on white
Tranona
Well-Known Member
HMG has had plenty of opportunity to back down - so it is either very sure of its case or considers it is politically better to support the lobbyists and blame the EU. Not a party political issue either, the previous government had the same policy.
jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
Getting back to basics I can only think this rule was introduced to give a level plying field across europe on fuel prices. But as countries level duty at a different rates it is a nonsense. Fuel is often cheaper abroad then in the UK even with their (low) rate of tax applied.
One of the big things that the E.U. is making a case for now is subsidiarity, that decisions should be made at the lowest possible level. This would be a prime candidate for the rules to be made at National level. I am far from a little Englander but think the E.U. should concentrate on larger issues and leave these decisions, which effect a relatively small number of people, to National Governments.
One of the big things that the E.U. is making a case for now is subsidiarity, that decisions should be made at the lowest possible level. This would be a prime candidate for the rules to be made at National level. I am far from a little Englander but think the E.U. should concentrate on larger issues and leave these decisions, which effect a relatively small number of people, to National Governments.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
The UK has to import a lot of diesel because many years ago we made a strategic decision to increase petrol refining capacity at UK refineries. The rise of diesel consumption was not foreseen as being as significant as it has been. So, now we are strapped for capacity and have to ship a couple of tankers full a week, mostly Russian made diesel, I believe. I posted the link to a parliamentary question and answer sort of thing some time ago (probably in the Lounge) on this point. The situation might be different today, but that was the cause for more expensive diesel in the UK.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
i would imagine that large areas of say Spain import all their fuels, but its still cheaper than here
Bru
Well-Known Member
I'd query "a lot" as on investigation it turns out we import about two weeks worth of our total annual usage or in other words we import less than 4% of our annual diesel needs
I don't know about strategic decisions but it is telling that in recent years two of the nine refineries in the UK have shut down altogether and all bar one of the remaining seven have been up for sale in the last three or four years. That suggests that wherever the profit is in the oil industry, it isn't in refining the stuff (any more than it is in retailing it)
Getting back to the original topic, few people seem to remember that the use of rebated duty diesel (a.k.a. "red diesel") for propulsion in leisure boats was always a concession long before the EU ever came into existence (I have heard it said by older folks than I that Churchill himself intervened after the war to argue for the concession as a reward for the participation of the Little Ships in the evacuation of Dunkirk. However, I suspect that's an apocryphal tale)
It's got to be more than twenty years now since the whole issue blew up
with the Europeans and we've been ducking and dodging it as a nation ever since. The 60/40 split thing was a rare example of both sides coming to a practical and pragmatic solution to a problem nobody really wanted to have to deal with. Unfortunately, it keeps being resurrected (I hesitate to blame the Belgian authorities but somebody somewhere keeps poking the EU in the eye and demanding they stop the dastardly Brits from using red diesel)The simple truth is that the writing has been on the wall for more than long enough for the industry to have got its act together. By now, MDO or DERV should be readily available (I note that the new fuel dock at Southwold offers both red and white)
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
I do not think you are correct. The article below is not the one I am referring to but it alludes to the same data. I have looked about YBW for the link but can't find it, yet, but it was an official response as to why diesel was more expensive in the UK. The article below is from 2013.
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21576438-making-most-difficult-business-fuels-errand
…. and http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324787004578495042727980934
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westhinder
Well-Known Member
Correct. Britain got the same temporary derogation as France, Belgium and the Netherlands. When the derogation ended, all except the UK complied and went on to use white diesel. There was no outcry, no surprise as it had been expected and communicated.It's got to be more than twenty years now since the whole issue blew up
The simple truth is that the writing has been on the wall for more than long enough for the industry to have got its act together. By now, MDO or DERV should be readily available (I note that the new fuel dock at Southwold offers both red and white)
Customs officers in Belgium do spot checks from time to time on yachts, as they do on the roads, in order to see no red diesel is used in non-authorised vehicles/boats. Due to the UK's stubborn attitude I can be in trouble with Belgian customs as a Belgian citizen sailing a Belgian flagged yacht, simply because I have had to fill up with diesel in the Uk and so traces of red will be in my tank. I spent a happy four months last year sailing around Britain, so I had no choice but to use red diesel. My last receipt will be accepted as a valid excuse for one year, which ends in august. Trouble is, not all the red diesel will have been replaced by white by that time, so I will be in trouble if I get checked.
The UK government could make life a lot simpler for everyone who travels between our shores. I have a suspicion that blaming the EU is higher on its political priorities than finding solutions. Is that really in British yachtsmen's interests?
2nd_apprentice
Well-Known Member
"I have a suspicion that blaming the EU is higher on its political priorities than finding solutions. Is that really in British yachtsmen's interests?"
That seems to sum it up nicely.
That seems to sum it up nicely.
maby
Well-Known Member
We really are deluding ourselves if we think that the government considers protecting the red diesel concession as being of any political significance. If the outcome made every boat owner in the country vote against the current government, the impact on the results at the next election would be immeasurably small.