Long term plans, realistic scenario for circumnavigation?

Kelpie said:
Funny how this thread seems to have veered off onto the question of 'vane or no vane'. I'm in the 'vane' camp but obviously people manage without.
It's not really got much to do with the choice of boat, though. Have a look at the photo gallery on the Hydrovane website, for example, to see how they manage to work with all sorts of different stern shapes.

For me, I don't really see any downsides to having a vane. I suppose you could buy one brand new and have it professionally fitted, and then you're talking thousands of pounds. But they do come up secondhand, and fitting them is not difficult.
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I think for any boat under the 45'? class where there are significant electrical systems and large battery banks with the means to keep them charged ie a well installed generator, then a vane with zero power consumption has to be very high on the list, the Hydrovane and others also have the ability to be used with a small tiller pilot with very small power consumption when motor sailing.
 
I had a new 37 foot Hanse, sailed about 30 k in 10 years, now have a vintage 46 foot Swan. Just completed first Atlantic circuit .
The Hanse was good; i felt she would be a bit small for a full round the world, hence the move up. The Hanse potentially is nearly as fast as the Swan if you look at handicap, the problem is the smaller light weight is far more tiring , the Swan can hold a good speed over more conditions.
Off shore in the Swan the greater weight, downstairs you have no idea if you are not moving or at 8 knots, the Hanse you knew exactly what she was doing as she banged and squeaked .
The ability to carry the provisions without completely overloading the boat is probably my main reason for more size.
4 up with provisions for 21 days a 37foot boat will be carrying a ton over design, this extra ton on a displacement of about 7 tons. The larger boat will be carrying weight over the design weight; but more likely about half a ton and this on a displacement of 15 tons.
It is a myth to say you will not sail in high winds, if you are going around the world you will see 50 knots and may be not even forecast. It is unavoidable.
Power generation, engines are noisy and inefficient, you will need about 3 hours a day; the fancy smart charge regulators are not as clever as advertised, when your batteries are boiling 7 days from nearest land you will wish you had put a vane on the back; I did 3 weeks ago. The only reason the engine was on was no wind, and if it is no wind on a ocean passage the temptation is to find wind using the engine.
I use towed Duogen to make electric; this is good in North Atlantic north of Canaries or Azores, near the tropics of the North Atlantic there is too much weed in the sea and the poor thing cannot work; the weed has become a big problem over the last 5 years.
Solar I have found hit and miss; over the last 14 years I have had multiple failures of panels; 2 panels held on with bugee that I move into the sun have been far more efficient than all the ones I have stuck down; which then overheat and die.
Fridge , you really want to move to water cooled.

Here a random list of the last 12 months problems , to give an idea of what you are up against.
Autopilot, bracket broke free damaged the motor as it was flying around lazerete, fortunately we were 3 hours away from landfall after 4 days off shore, repair involved begging to Raymarine who responded well and some nifty on board repairs in port, plus taking bracket back to UK to beef up, all work off shore is more complicated than dealing with people you know and talk the lingo. Autopilot broke second time 3 hour from landfall after 14 day sail, this time was fitting on quadrant , there were 2 others in Rodney bay with same fault; now over engineered replacement has proved its worth on return Atlantic
Batteries complete bank failed in Algarve when laid up for 3 months,probably the high summer heat, local replacement would have been double cost of UK, we drove down with new ones as was most cost effective, this bank was boiled 3 weeks ago, see a few paragraphs up. The Batteries still work but I have lost about half capacity.
Bilge pumps, 3 failed out of 5 last month, we leak. From echo sounder, will fix at next lift as is only a drip except when slamming. Engine sea water pump, this is now in van repaired ready to go back on, try finding a kit off shore then drifting out seal and bearings. Bit from rudder stock again heavy sea. All hatches cry when we push into a head sea. The 3 failed were one electric and 2 hand, had to buy new electric as could not get kit, will rebuild now in UK, 1 new hand bought 2 old canabilised to make 1 working.
Steering, the autopilot worked a mount loose that created some movement in a block, this was a back to UK to remachine as again try to find a local to do what I want was more complicated than taking home.
Duogen broke main drive shaft, probably weed causing vibration that loosened a nut, repaired off shore and shipped parts to Azores.
Sails no problem, Standing rigging was all replaced 18 months ago, odd problems; but no catastrophe , just look at it all every day . Spin Pole , used for Genoa most of the time has broken a fitting, probably have to machine a new part as fitting is obsolete, screw sheared on pole track; sailing multiple days downwind with pole out these parts sees more use in one ocean than most boats in a life time also I am a retired racing boat
Toilet, one broke in Azores.
Anchor, the one I had did not like 25knot katabatic winds behind Carib island mountains; bought one 2 sizes bigger and being a man presumed the most expensive would be the best; it now works.
Odd lights pack up, currently bow light flashes on and off, only used it for 10 mins to get into marina, and it was midnight with no one about ; but will be fixed tomorrow.
I could probably write a book on all bits on the old Hanse; but she is completing a 3rd Atlantic circuit now with new owners so you cannot knock her. All repairs upgrades were directly linked to the miles sailed, a production boat will not survive use all day everyday without some TLC; but boats are mechanical so repairs should be expected.
 
Are you actually going to do a circumnavigation, or are you going to go down to the med, cruise around there for 10 years and then hope across the the Caribbean?

If the former, then the Bav is not the beast for you.

If the latter, then it will be perfectly capable (2 lots of friends of ours left last year and cruised down to the Med in their Bav37s (one a 2002, and the other a 2015 boat). Both boats handled it fine, and they are now somewhere in the Ballierics.

One of them does Youtube video diaries - search for:- sv Impavidus

Personally I would suggest that you keep your current boat and upgrade it bit by bit over the next few years, take it to the Med, and then see what goes from there. If you decide that you want a bigger boat, there are plenty for sale in the Med, and if you decide you want to go further afield, then places like the Canary Islands are a good place to pick up a blue-water boat at a bargain price.
 
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Yes, all failures were semi flex .
I believe the problem me always sticking to horizontal deck area, they are constantly damp underneath in UK conditions and very hot when in warm climate. It is claimed you can stick down and walk on, the practice is different.
I have 2 replacment panels as manufacturer admited fault on last 3 failures at 4 months old; these I will fit on an area that is at about 45 degrees to vertical or horizontal, this should prevent damp underneath , also will space off structure to encourage airflow.
Simon

P.S. I never mentioned an engine fault that has troubled me for 18 months; sometimes the engine will not tick over, a complete pain when you are manovering in a marine and a random stall happens.
UK mechanic could not find, Lagos again no fault showing, Martiique we tried changing oil hoses that were weeping , silly cost for 4 high pressure hoses, the days labour was at europe rates; this improved but problem persisted.
Now boat back in UK I declared war on engine, found a faulty hand primer on a filter, that may be the cause; just have fenders at the ready if you see me approaching in a marina as fault may still be there, will not know untill we are out playing again.
 
LadyInBed said:
In my limited experience of 3 Biscay circuits with 2x80w semi flexible solars, they more than coped with my electrical navigation needs, that includes A/H, CP and AIS.
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Exactly one car of the production line will fail this is the same as any product on the Market , just poor luck , if you are going to stick you panels down with Glue you will potentially over heat then , by using Velcro or others on each corner and middle point you can create a thin air Gap . no you cant walk on them then by why would you want to :encouragement:
To Gertha you seemed to have a lot of issues with you Pilot , did you install it or some one else , as to my previous point , an Auto pilot does not fail that often it is the installation that is the problem :confused: Beef up you Bolts , your mounting plates and increase the load over the area .
As for Batteries cooking , never heard of this happening due to useage and in hot climes , have sufficent air flow around your battries , check that the connections are tight, a loose connector will cause excsssive heat , with a boat pounding around always good to check vital bolts all the time , on your Battery banks and Autopilots
Batteries are desgined to run load on them with sufficent cable size and sturdy connections there should not be any real issues

In refrence to the Anchor been 2 sizes bigger to your boat , you should scale your Anchor to the needs of the boat and perthaps raise it by one size , bigger in not always better (there is a man joke there but I ll get my Coat)
 
LadyInBed said:
In my limited experience of 3 Biscay circuits with 2x80w semi flexible solars, they more than coped with my electrical navigation needs, that includes A/H, CP and AIS.
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That's useful information.
I would assume the average current drawn by an autopilot might be a lot less for a well balanced spade rudder than a long keel with an unbalanced rudder hung on it. Also good sail trim will load the rudder less.
 
Bobc said:
Are you actually going to do a circumnavigation, or are you going to go down to the med, cruise around there for 10 years and then hope across the the Caribbean?

If the former, then the Bav is not the beast for you.

If the latter, then it will be perfectly capable (2 lots of friends of ours left last year and cruised down to the Med in their Bav37s (one a 2002, and the other a 2015 boat). Both boats handled it fine, and they are now somewhere in the Ballierics.

One of them does Youtube video diaries - search for:- sv Impavidus

Personally I would suggest that you keep your current boat and upgrade it bit by bit over the next few years, take it to the Med, and then see what goes from there. If you decide that you want a bigger boat, there are plenty for sale in the Med, and if you decide you want to go further afield, then places like the Canary Islands are a good place to pick up a blue-water boat at a bargain price.
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The latter we think is the most likely initial plan. we have fairly reasonable of our own capabilities to be frank.
 
Sea Devil said:
+ 1 Actually its more about the person - couple than the boat. I have seen some very small boats and some very lightweight boats circumnavigating às well as apparently more appropriate boats..
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Yes, I have too. But it's never convinced me that if you have any choice in the matter, it's a good way for a couple to go. Superheroes excepted!

Not that lightweight yachts can't cope. In 2005 in Porto Santo we met with up with a brand new Beneteau Oceanis 441 being delivered to a charter fleet in the Caribbean when it was struck by a Cat 1 hurricane (Hurricane Vince), and passed right through the eye. The anemometer had recorded 80 knots. The skipper told me how he had tried to heave-to, but the yacht "wouldn't take it, and kept running off at 6 knots". The crew of three managed to take all sails down, retired below and simply hoped for the best - a tactic deplored by heavy weather gurus as risking a roll-over, but one most of us resort to on our first experience of really heavy weather. The yacht coped with it when the crew were beaten.

My wife and I also had 50kt winds on the fringe of this storm, but in a purpose designed 38' blue-water cruiser were able to keep control, sailing downwind under storm jib towing warps and letting the wind-vane do most of the steering.
 
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We are 2/3 of the way around. NO Windvane. But 2 autopilots and lots of spares for both.

Windvane is more of a faff than a real help. Clutter, weight and limited usefulness. Add solar instead.

GL
 
Monique said:
We are 2/3 of the way around. NO Windvane. But 2 autopilots and lots of spares for both.

Windvane is more of a faff than a real help. Clutter, weight and limited usefulness. Add solar instead.

GL
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Yes they are a damn nuisance you have to reef and set those distracting bits of cloth they call sails.:rolleyes:
 
Bit of an update. Had a couple heart to hearts over the last few days - a family funeral has really focused us.

The post above from Bobc gave us a very different perspective on the whole matter. We simply had not considered "giving it a go" for a few years and then either carrying on in the same vein or "moving up" to another boat if circumstances permitted (or dictated). It seemed like an all or nothing deal at the time.

It has provided us both with what appears to be a very easy path to achive at least 60% of what we wanted, with a long term path to getting the boat in a position to do what we want without wasting the money. I think both of us have realised that we are not hairy old seadogs, neither are we marina limpets - I think we desire some middle ground where we re-locate to "home" (wherever and whatever that may be) during the months that its more practical to have the boat ashore/parked out of the way.

The ability to know that we have the option to change things, and be able to go without significant financial burden - is a game changer. Now of course is the assumption that the boat (now 15 years old) will still be going in another 10 years.
 
SiteSurfer said:
Bit of an update. Had a couple heart to hearts over the last few days - a family funeral has really focused us.

The post above from Bobc gave us a very different perspective on the whole matter. We simply had not considered "giving it a go" for a few years and then either carrying on in the same vein or "moving up" to another boat if circumstances permitted (or dictated). It seemed like an all or nothing deal at the time.

It has provided us both with what appears to be a very easy path to achive at least 60% of what we wanted, with a long term path to getting the boat in a position to do what we want without wasting the money. I think both of us have realised that we are not hairy old seadogs, neither are we marina limpets - I think we desire some middle ground where we re-locate to "home" (wherever and whatever that may be) during the months that its more practical to have the boat ashore/parked out of the way.

The ability to know that we have the option to change things, and be able to go without significant financial burden - is a game changer. Now of course is the assumption that the boat (now 15 years old) will still be going in another 10 years.
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Really pleased to hear that.

Some friends of mine went down the path of selling their Bav 39 and buying a steel 50fter with the idea of "going in 5 years time". Circumstances changed on them, and they are now stuck in the Solent with a boat that's no good for the Solent.

I have a 2003 Bavaria (which I've had from new), and we are going off cruising next year, so I'm doing all the upgrades/re-vamps now. So far I've put a new engine in, had the standing rigging replaced, fitted a new chartplotter and radar, changed all the lights (and nav lights) to led, plus a few other bits, and by the time I've done the seacocks and skin fittings and replaced the batteries and fitted solar next winter, I reckon I'll still have spent less than the brokerage cost for selling the boat and the cost of getting any new boat as I want it, and I'll have the boat I know and like with all new stuff on. It's definitely the way to go.

People keep asking me where we're going and for how long, and my answer is "No idea. We're just going to start heading south and see what happens".
 
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SiteSurfer said:
We simply had not considered "giving it a go" for a few years and then either carrying on in the same vein or "moving up" to another boat if circumstances permitted (or dictated). It seemed like an all or nothing deal at the time..
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Sounds sensible :cool:

Only way to know for sure if you absolutely adore full time cruising is to go cruising for a while, then if you fancy going up a notch you'll actually know what you really want in a world gurdler.
 
Bobc said:
Really pleased to hear that.

Some friends of mine went down the path of selling their Bav 39 and buying a steel 50fter with the idea of "going in 5 years time". Circumstances changed on them, and they are now stuck in the Solent with a boat that's no good for the Solent.

I have a 2003 Bavaria (which I've had from new), and we are going off cruising next year, so I'm doing all the upgrades/re-vamps now. So far I've put a new engine in, had the standing rigging replaced, fitted a new chartplotter and radar, changed all the lights (and nav lights) to led, plus a few other bits, and by the time I've done the seacocks and skin fittings and replaced the batteries and fitted solar next winter, I reckon I'll still have spent less than the brokerage cost for selling the boat and the cost of getting any new boat as I want it, and I'll have the boat I know and like with all new stuff on. It's definitely the way to go.

People keep asking me where we're going and for how long, and my answer is "No idea. We're just going to start heading south and see what happens".
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A hell of a lot of money spent on a 2003 boat , what happened to the Engine , did all the rigging need replaced , and I always think to myself why throw away good Electronics if its not broken, and sea cocks , were they not Bronze.
Sorry I am amazed at the work needed on such a young boat.
I am updating my boat ot go in 2 years , keeping the 43 year old engine , no issues starts first time , only replaced parts of the rigging after a full inspection and keeping the old Nasa instruments , on board , they tell you a number the same as the ones 3 times the price :p
Had to replace the old auto pilot which was a shuddering corroded mess , but there is a boat on you tube still sailing with the old Navico one that I had :D
There is no reason to spend £10000+ on upgrading a boat plenty older boats out there doing just fine , it is about making sure you check and maintain a boat carefully she will outlast us all
 
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