Lofrans Tigres Windlass: Mangled Inner Clutch Cone?

[nigelmercier]

I've just taken my Lofrans Tigres [sic] Windlass to bits. I started on the gypsy side and all went OK until I got to the inner clutch cone; it has mangled itself on the Woodruff key, which looks a bit bent itself:

I can't pull the cone off to inspect the damage, I suspect it's screwed, but insights welcome.

I then started to dismantle the drum side. Of course all but one of the 4mm head Allen Screws were seized solid and soon became rounded, so I started to drill them out using a 5mm drill. At this point I had an idea, and hammered a TX30 Torx bit into the 5mm hole: it worked perfectly. A handy tip I think.

Anyway, I'm now in the situation that I need to get the drive gear disengaged from the worm-drive shaft so I can attempt to remove the driven shaft from this side, see below. Is this possible?

 

[Murv]

I don't know if you've seen Vas's excellent thread, may be of some help? http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?293957-gipsy-gone
Also, when googling Lofrans Tigres service, I found a write up where the guy had had the shaft machined out and a larger woodruff key fitted following the same problem you have.
He reports that it's still in good order some Years later so recommends that as an upgrade anyway.
I can have a search for the link if you can't find it, but it was just a search on google.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I've just taken my Lofrans Tigres [sic] Windlass to bits. I started on the gypsy side and all went OK until I got to the inner clutch cone; it has mangled itself on the Woodruff key, which looks a bit bent itself:

I can't pull the cone off to inspect the damage, I suspect it's screwed, but insights welcome.

I then started to dismantle the drum side. Of course all but one of the 4mm head Allen Screws were seized solid and soon became rounded, so I started to drill them out using a 5mm drill. At this point I had an idea, and hammered a TX30 Torx bit into the 5mm hole: it worked perfectly. A handy tip I think.

Anyway, I'm now in the situation that I need to get the drive gear disengaged from the worm-drive shaft so I can attempt to remove the driven shaft from this side, see below. Is this possible?

OK nigel I did mine several years ago so if you want I can help.

1) the key is not a woodruff key is is a normal parallel key and can be obtained from any engineering suppliers.
2) There is no thread holding the inner clutch it normally just pushes on over the key but it looks that the cocked key is holding the clutch on and I would use a gear puller to get it off.
3) It looks like the keyways are damaged to what extent you will not know until the clutch is off but it looks like the clutch keyway and bore is quite badly damages which means either a new clutch or possibility someone could rebush the current one.
4) Stainless steel screws into tapped aluminium holes on a foredeck means that the screws will be "welded in" and if you managed to bet one out consider yourself lucky as I could not get any out. If I remember correct the screws are M8 socket countersunk so the root diameter of the screw thread will be 6.5mm but be very careful drilling as you may go off center and drill the aluminium. Then it means welding ,redrilling and tapping

5) to remove the worm wheel you need to remove the motor which will allow the worm to cone out and release the worm wheel to come out sideways.

Hore that helps if you need any other info pls come back to me

 

[vas]

Nigel,

just looking at the pic I remembered a few bits, currently in a meeting, will check in the eve and reply with more details.

Main issue is that the key effective HAS TO let the bronze bit SLIDE in and out and get the thing working.
Now in your case, it got an awful lot of stress and turned a wee bit, locking solid...
You have to remove the bronze bit. Remember it just slides on the ss axle.

Which means you should try and turn the bronze back so that the key sort of straightens, unlocks and bronze bit pulls out easily.
Once out, you evaluate the condition of the ss axle (I remember I had to lightly file it round again on the edges of the keyhole, and then get a new key that matched nicely the hole and the bronze.

Good luck, should be done, just assess the easiest (and least damage inducing) way of removing the bronze thing...

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

Roger beat me to it

FWIW, Roger I managed with an impact driver to remove ALL countersunk screws without damaging them.
Nigel, check the area around the stripper for corrosion. Both mine and a mates Tigress was ripped apart there and needed welding the case. Check my thread on the windlass rebuilt.

cheers

V.

 

[rogerthebodger]

FWIW, Roger I managed with an impact driver to remove ALL countersunk screws without damaging them.
cheers

V.

The windlass gods must have been on your side that day.

Mine had a lot of material missing due to corrosion that I had to rebuild up after stripping.

 

[nigelmercier]

Update.

I've managed to remove the key by cutting with a Dremel, but I still can't pull off the clutch cone. It looks like the shaft is damaged, the slot appears distorted.

[Rogershaw] to remove the worm wheel you need to remove the motor...

There is a bearing on the end of the worm drive (the oil level gauge is on the end of it) and it doesn't look like an enclosed race. If I pull out the motor and worm drive, will all the ball bearings fall out?

[Murv]... I found a write up where the guy had had the shaft machined out and a larger woodruff key fitted following the same problem you have.

That may be a possibility, do you have a link?

[Vas] check the area around the stripper for corrosion.

Yes, it's pretty bad. I'll post photos when I've sorted out the current problems.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Update.

[Rogershaw] to remove the worm wheel you need to remove the motor...
There is a bearing on the end of the worm drive (the oil level gauge is on the end of it) and it doesn't look like an enclosed race. If I pull out the motor and worm drive, will all the ball bearings fall out?

From what I remember the ball bearing is a deep groove that take the thrust from the worm.
There could be 2 angular contact ball bearings one at each end and both should have a cage that will retain the balls, so unless the cage is broken in which the bearing is US the balls should stay in the races if not they need replacing anyway

 

[nigelmercier]

... the balls should stay in the races if not they need replacing anyway

There are two roller bearings, one on the shaft and one as as a thrust. I still can't pull off the big gear that engaged with the worm-drive. It moves freely, but then hits a hidden stop.

 

[vas]

Update.

I've managed to remove the key by cutting with a Dremel, but I still can't pull off the clutch cone. It looks like the shaft is damaged, the slot appears distorted.

[Rogershaw] to remove the worm wheel you need to remove the motor...

There is a bearing on the end of the worm drive (the oil level gauge is on the end of it) and it doesn't look like an enclosed race. If I pull out the motor and worm drive, will all the ball bearings fall out?

[Murv]... I found a write up where the guy had had the shaft machined out and a larger woodruff key fitted following the same problem you have.

That may be a possibility, do you have a link?

[Vas] check the area around the stripper for corrosion.

Yes, it's pretty bad. I'll post photos when I've sorted out the current problems.

Nigel,

unless you remove the cone you cannot get the axles out. I guess you do have the various pdfs from the web? ankerwinch-lofrans-tigres.pdf has the exploded view of all the parts, you have it? Don't remember were I got it, if not let me know and I'll email it.

How did you manage to remove the key with the cone attached???
Don't expect that the axle is damaged, 99% it's still serviceable.
The cone may need filling and recutting at a machinist, but I'm not too sure. Try to hit the cone in the opposite direction to unlock it!

V.

 

[RichardS]

The cone needs a quick bash anticlockwise to re-align it so it will slide off the key, or whatever's left of the long key.

I think the cone will need to be replaced as it will keep jamming with that level of distortion.

Richard

 

[rogerthebodger]

There are two roller bearings, one on the shaft and one as as a thrust. I still can't pull off the big gear that engaged with the worm-drive. It moves freely, but then hits a hidden stop.

I take it the roller bearings are on the worm shaft which is to the manual that I found but the worm wheel shaft has ball bearings as there will be very little thrust in the worm wheel shaft compared with the worm shaft.

From the manual it looks like there are 2 circlips, one ach side of the worm wheel locating the wheel on to the shaft.

If the keys are still in the shaft that could stop the worm wheel from sliding off the shaft or it could be just a tight fit in the shaft.

If the shaft is still in the housing the chain stripper of run back latch could stop the worm wheel moving.

This doc has a exploded diagram of the tigers as well as other windlass diagrams.

http://nathol.leclercq.free.fr/Nathol/Pages/Guindeau/Documents/Lofrans_Tigre.pdf

Hope that helps

 

[nigelmercier]

The cone needs a quick bash anticlockwise to re-align it so it will slide off the key, or whatever's left of the long key...

I've got the key out, the shaft looks a bit chewed up along the edges of the keyway. I've tried re-aligning the cone, it doesn't want to come off.

If the keys are still in the shaft that could stop the worm wheel from sliding off the shaft or it could be just a tight fit in the shaft.

No, it rotates freely, and slides about 5mm, but it won't pull off.

I note that in your picture it is still on the shaft, it does come off, doesn't it?

 

[Murv]

Doubt it's as helpful as the guys on here, but here's the link: http://www.oceannavigator.com/November-December-2010/Servicing-your-electric-anchor-windlass/

 

[RichardS]

I've got the key out, the shaft looks a bit chewed up along the edges of the keyway. I've tried re-aligning the cone, it doesn't want to come off.

The distortion must be simply clamping the cone onto the shaft. Do you have a puller with long enough arms to pull it off. Or use a level gently around the back of the cone against the windlass body and jemmy it off.

I can't really see how that cone can be made fit for use again.

Richard

 

[nigelmercier]

I can't really see how that cone can be made fit for use again.

Nor do I. Looking for ways to cut it off I think.

.. here's the link

Was this meant to be the link with the larger key?

I've started a new thread regarding the corrosion on the stripper.

 

[rogerthebodger]

No, it rotates freely, and slides about 5mm, but it won't pull off.

I note that in your picture it is still on the shaft, it does come off, doesn't it?

Yes it should cone off.\ the shaft is stainless and the worm wheel should be bronze. You say it rotates on the shaft so you have removed the key holding the worm wheel to the shaft. Is there any circlips on the shaft stopping the wheel from sliding up and down the shaft. I couldn't see one on the pic you posted with the wheel still inside the housing.

Have a look at the exploded diagram in the manual I posted and the description of the parts on the next page.

No 324 are the circlips. I take it you have removed the drive spider No. 477 and make sure the key No 208 is removed, the bearing 323 is removed and any damage to the keyway is filed down as damage here could stop the worm wheel sliding off.

If all that is OK place the worm wheel on an open vice with the shaft end that the gipsy fitted onto and top the shaft through with a soft head hammer or piece of wood on the end of the shaft.

Signing off now will check in in the morning.

 

[superheat6k]

Nor do I. Looking for ways to cut it off I think.


Was this meant to be the link with the larger key?

I've started a new thread regarding the corrosion on the stripper.

I would drill and tap a couple of holes say M8 into the fatter splines of the cone, each side o the shaft, then use stud bar and a flat plate to make a simple puller. Once its off it might be possible to re-profile the cone, bore out and make a sleeve or use as a pattern to make a new one. Brass would be OK for this job.

 

[nigelmercier]

[Rogershaw] Is there any circlips on the shaft stopping the wheel from sliding up and down the shaft.
Only 324, I assume!

[Rogershaw] I take it you have removed the drive spider No. 477 and make sure the key No 208 is removed
Yes to 477. I don't have a 208, only 209. All keys that I can see have been removed.

[Rogershaw] bearing 323 is removed and any damage to the keyway is filed down as damage here could stop the worm wheel sliding off.
I can't get to bearing 323! There is no damage that I can see this side of the worm-drive gear, see my 3rd picture in my OP.

 

[vas]

I would drill and tap a couple of holes say M8 into the fatter splines of the cone, each side o the shaft, then use stud bar and a flat plate to make a simple puller. Once its off it might be possible to re-profile the cone, bore out and make a sleeve or use as a pattern to make a new one. Brass would be OK for this job.

^ what Trevor says

try to save all bits, not sure you're going to find parts and you'll survive a heart attack when you hear the price for the cone fe...

V.