Lofrans Tigres Windlass: Mangled Inner Clutch Cone?

[ghostlymoron]

I understand that Lofrans have changed hands and that all spares are now available - at a price. Good piece of kit but problems with corrosion of different materials. I had to use a sledge hammer to dismantle a Royale model which is the manual version of the Tigres.

^ what Trevor says

try to save all bits, not sure you're going to find parts and you'll survive a heart attack when you hear the price for the cone fe...

V.

 

[Murv]

This is the UK distributor for Lofrans spares: http://www.peachment.co.uk/

 

[Graham_Wright]

Just a trivial addition in the mix of real problems. Helicoils could be a solution to the M8 problem.

 

[nigelmercier]

... not sure you're going to find parts and you'll survive a heart attack when you hear the price for the cone fe...

Just heard back from Peachment:

Main shaft £63.62 Delivery 2 weeks from Italy
Cone Clutch £25.51 Available from stock

All pricing excludes vat & carriage

Much cheaper than I thought. I'm now going to try locally, as "VAT" is lower here.

 

[vas]

Just heard back from Peachment:

Main shaft £63.62 Delivery 2 weeks from Italy
Cone Clutch £25.51 Available from stock

All pricing excludes vat & carriage

Much cheaper than I thought. I'm now going to try locally, as "VAT" is lower here.

that's not bad at all!
I'm impressed, did you manage to extract the cone clutch thing finally, and if so how?

cheers

V.

 

[nigelmercier]

I have finally managed to remove the inner clutch cone! I had to cut huge chunks off it with a Dremel, but the reason for the problem is now clear:

Some idiot (not me) has put the cone back on without a circlip (although I'm a bit confused as I can't see one in the exploded diagram). As the 3-way wingnut was tightened, the brass of the cone was forced into the groove.

So next questions are:

[1] What should this cone press up against?
[2] Does the shaft look usable?

 

[rogerthebodger]

No 324 are the circlips.

I take it you have removed the drive spider No. 477

Nigel

In my above post there are 2 circlips 324 shown in the split diagram I posted

As you said one was not fitted between the drive spider and the worm wheel and I could no see one in your pic that you first posted.

If the circlips are not there it could push the worm wheel into the worm causing additional ware on the worm wheel. It may be the cause of why you are finding it difficult to remove the worm wheel from the shaft as the same distortion could have happened to the worm wheel as you see on the clutch. I hope not.

That is not a circuit groove it just looks like a machining undercut the circlips are each side of the worm wheel and if one of those are missing the spider will move too far along the shaft and peen down into the undercut groove as you have found.

 

[RichardS]

[1] What should this cone press up against?
[2] Does the shaft look usable?

As Roger says, that is not a circlip groove as it would surely not be chamfered unless that is some serious wear on the steel. It's also strange that the key slot is so out of alignment with the cone assembly.

I think the shaft would still be usuable from what we can see it the photo (excellent photos by the way) but I think the entire shaft alignment is wrong and that the whole shaft is too far out / to the left probably because of a circlip being left off somewhere else along the shaft (I think Roger suspects the same). I don't think that the cone is supposed to lie over that chamfered groove at all.

The situation with the brass being forced into the groove is horrendous and not something that should be able to happen if the assembly is correct. I thought that perhaps a spacer should be in the chamfered groove but that doesn't really make sense. I think that groove should be further inwards but, as you say, what does the cone butt up against? I can't help thinking that something like a spacer or circlip which holds the shaft in a different position to the one it is now, is missing.

My Quick windlass looks very similar but the assembly of locating circlips, spacers and cones is obvious and it is a 5 minutes job to remove the cones and circlips and the shaft then just pulls right out and leaves the large cog in situ.

Edit .... looking at your photo again Nigel, that might indeed be the circlip groove which is supposed to butt up against the housing. This would be like my Quick. However, that chamfer seems completely wrong and would just make it easy for the circlip to slip down the shaft. So, either that chamfer is metal wear or it's a very unusual design which relies on a similar circlip on the other end of the shaft to stop any lateral movement (also the same as my Quick). Is there a chamfered circlip slot on the other side? Is so, it is just an unusual design and a couple of new circlips (and cone!) should sort it.

Richard

 

[nigelmercier]

In my above post there are 2 circlips 324 shown in the split diagram I posted...

I think we may be talking at cross purposes. Starting with the big spring 326, I have:

477 Dog Clutch (removed OK, two Woodruff keys below)
324 Circlip (removed)
476 Wormwheel (rotates, but won't pull off, gets lumpy as it approaches dual key slots)
324 Circlip
323 Bearing
[Casing]
319 Seal
[Step in the shaft]
277 Clutch cone

I've reassembled it [with the cone on the wrong way!] for the picture below.

The shaft has a step in it adjacent to the clutch cone, and as it drops below the smaller diameter I assumed it was for a circlip. It seems not, but bearing the brass on this thin lip seems odd.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Looking at the exploded diagram again I think the cone would but uo against the shoulder on the shaft as there is no spacer shown. The only items is a seal and ball bearing on the shaft , a circlip then the worm wheel and a second circlip, the dog clutch that engages in the square holes in the worm wheel then spring, washer and a third circlip , ball bearing and seal.

The only items keyed to the shaft are the cone clutch the dog clutch and the rope drum at the other end.

IMHO I think the damage to the come clutch was due to someone over tightening the gipsy into the shaft. This only needs tightening such that the gipsy is only just driven and can slip to prevent overloading.

I cannot tell if all the circlips are there but the one pic Nigel posted does not seem to show one that should be there.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I think we may be talking at cross purposes. Starting with the big spring 326, I have:

477 Dog Clutch (removed OK, two Woodruff keys below)
324 Circlip (removed)
476 Wormwheel (rotates, but won't pull off, gets lumpy as it approaches dual key slots)
324 Circlip
323 Bearing
[Casing]
319 Seal
[Step in the shaft]
277 Clutch cone

I've reassembled it for the picture below.

The shaft has a step in it adjacent to the clutch cone, and as it drops below the smaller diameter I assumed it was for a circlip. It seems not, but bearing the brass on this thin lip seems odd.

That looks right to me and I agree it is a small step on the shaft but the load should not be big enough to cause the damage on your come clutch so IMHO some one has forced that causing the damage you found. The gipsy and come clutch should only be hand tight, just enough to drive the load on the gipsy. Thats why it only has short handles and no spanner flats.

" 476 Wormwheel (rotates, but won't pull off, gets lumpy as it approaches dual key slots "

I think that "lumpy " feel is damage (pickup) to the shaft and I would take a fine flat file to try to smooth and roughness out even if its not obvious .

Just wish I could have a look at mine but its 600Km away at the mo.

 

[RichardS]

The shaft has a step in it adjacent to the clutch cone, and as it drops below the smaller diameter I assumed it was for a circlip. It seems not, but bearing the brass on this thin lip seems odd.

I'm sure you are right Nigel and that the cone just butts up to that thin lip. Wny there is the chamfered groove at all and not just a right-angled step in the shaft I don't know. It seems totally unnecessary and just gives the brass cone an "opportunity" to lock in place which it otherwise wouldn't have.

I assume the cone is the wrong way round in the final photo.

Richard

 

[nigelmercier]

Except that I've got the cone clutch on the wrong way!

Corrected picture below, also close up of bearing surface of cone clutch. I guess I will have to wait for the new one and compare.

 

[vas]

Except that I've got the cone clutch on the wrong way!

just woke up and looking at the previous pic I was VERY CONFUSED
much better this way.

Nigel,

struggling to remember, got to rush to the boat and do some work, when I'm back I'll try and find all the pics I took during the rebuilt and see if I can remember something on the assembly. I do remember the step, no idea if there's meant to be a circlip there or not

V.

 

[ghostlymoron]

Have you any thoughts on why this has happened. I would have thought there should be a torque cutout to stop the motor before anY damage is done. If so is it working?

 

[rogerthebodger]

Have you any thoughts on why this has happened. I would have thought there should be a torque cutout to stop the motor before anY damage is done. If so is it working?

The cone clutch is that torque overload slip but IMHO some one tightened it too much, may be with a big spenner that caused the damage.

The only overload on my windlass is a circuit breaker but this was mechanical.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I thought it was tightened up with the 3 way spidery thing. Maybe the anchor got stuck and someone over cranked it to get a stronger pull. Ive only worked on manual ones.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I thought it was tightened up with the 3 way spidery thing. Maybe the anchor got stuck and someone over cranked it to get a stronger pull. Ive only worked on manual ones.

That would be my thinking also.

It would take quite a high torque to distort the key , keyway and shaft as shown in one of the early pics.

Knowing the lack of strength of the mountings I would have thought the mountings would break off rather than bending the shaft and key.

 

[Nigelb]

Nigel,

I have a scrap winch that I took apart last year, let me know if you need any parts, they might be ok for your project, based in Winchester.