Locking Turns

[jimi]

There seems to be an accepted wisdom that these are dangerous. I disagree completely and feel more secure with modern nylon,polyester with a locking turn. IMHO the danger of locking turns go back to when ropes were made of natural fibres and shrank when wet, so I see no reason for not using them on manmade ropes. Thoughts?

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[tcm]

i agree mostly. Think another danger is of putting the lock in too early, at which point the line can be er very locked, if under tension.

But lots of peeps don't take a line right round the outside of the cleat to start with, but immediately start doing the "knitting". The strains just one arm of the cleat.

Without a locking turn, there is slippage, and with certain types of line you need more than one lock, it seems.

On mobos or other boats with lot of windage, the locking up of locking turns can be quite a prob, if they are used excessively and without a complete round turn, and left for any length of time.

So, better to repalce locky turns with proper knot like rtt+2hh if leaving a big-windage boat for significant time i suppose


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[Peppermint]

Re: Depends what the line does

and where it's positioned, I don't like them on sheets for example but I do like them on runners certainly if they are positioned in a kick zone.

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[duncan]

rtt+2hh - don't know that one

how does it differ from the rt+2hh? Is it stronger? Easier to tie?


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[Twister_Ken]

Really terrible twist and two horrible hitches

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[claymore]

Yes - its what they do on motorboats with all that strange black rope they seem to get hold of. I understand its the same stuff that they used to do in maroon and place across the stairs going up to the balcony in the cinemas to stop penniless oiks from buying a 6d ticket then sneaking upstairs.
Personally, I always bought a 9d ticket then went under the seats down to the 6d end to be nearer to Hopalong and Gabby Hayes

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Claymore
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[Observer]

Haven't tested it scientifically but I was told that after the first round turn on the base of the cleat, 2-3 figures of eight, the last with a locking turn to stop it from slipping off, will hold in all cases. Adding more turns, especially more locking turns, adds no more security and justs makes the line harder/slower to remove. This has always worked for me.

I'm wouldn't use rt2hh on a dockside cleat just because easier to use the cleat in the way intended. I would use rt2hh on a dockside ring, probably double up the line to saving dragging yards through the ring - but it can end up looking a bit untidy with no very easy way of tidying up excess line.

I notice lots of raggies prefer bowline on dockside cleat and made off on boat cleat. I always think a bit dubious because it's too easy to flip the loop off the cleat if the weight is taken off. Better to double the loop if that's your preference.



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[jimi]

I usually do a bowline on the dock cleat as its neater and alows other people to use the same cleat. I do however either put it through the middle and over either end or aclually tie it through the middle. I use the OXO method on the cleat with a locking turn or OX and two locking turns if the rope is too short to do an O and lock turn.

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[claymore]

<I notice lots of raggies prefer bowline on dockside cleat and made off on boat cleat. I always think a bit dubious because it's too easy to flip the loop off the cleat if the weight is taken off.>
This doesn't happen if you feed the loop through the middle part of the cleat then hitch it over the end of the cleat. Further backed up by making sure the tension on bow, stern and springs is correct and balanced so that there isn't enough slack to let this happen.

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Claymore
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[tcm]

I was told by fairliney man that with big windage and lurchiness, just a single lock turn won't hold indefinitely. Spose it depends on conditions...

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[Observer]

Agreed. But lots of raggies still seem to just have bowline loop over the cleat rather than tied round or looped over. I think it's an "old school way of doing things".

On tensioning I agree. But if you're in a tidal area without floating pontoons, you need long fore and aft lines taken well forward/astern and can't makem too tight.



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[tcm]

I plan to install lots of 2" maroon rope rails around the bed, and in the sitting room too. All the top-notch stately homes and palaces have this.

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[jimi]

In a large tidal area its your springs that are critical and the breast ropes should be slack enough to accomodate maximum fall. In area like Cherbourg the put weights in the middle of the breastropes to keep down the slack.

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[Observer]

Talking mooring

What the heck do you do if in Brittany somewhere, not on floating dock/pontoon, with an 11m tidal range? Keep re-adjusting the lines or is there a way of leaving a boat safely over the full tidal cycle?

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[vyv_cox]

I normally tie a bowline through the cleat on board, take a line around the cleat on the pontoon and bring it back aboard, using an OXO attachment. Last week, for some reason, we cleated ashore with an OXO and left it like that, in no wind. Later in the day the wind increased considerably, to F6 or 7 for a while, and we realised that we were lying at 30 degrees to the pontoon, beam to the wind. Investigation proved that the OXO was slipping in the gusts. From now on it's OXXO or even OXXOO.

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[claymore]

Re: Talking mooring

Jim has answered this really but in places like Portpatrick where there is a high harbour wall ( all harbour walls seem high when you are 5'5") I think the critical time to watch the Bow and Stern lines is at low water - I normally do some very rough calculations of range and set my lines accordingly.
I also cheat by looking to see what others have done - particularly those who are on the inside of a raft who look like they've been in there throughout the duration of a tide. I have a couple of window sash weights somewhere in the recesses of a locker which I use to keep tension on the lines and this helps to stop me drifting out.

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Claymore
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[jimi]

Re: Talking mooring

In really big tidal ranges if your springs are 3 times the tidal range Ive calculated that for an 11M tide if youve got a 33 M spring at the top of the tide then you'll need 35 M at the bottom of the tide, should be accomodated on stretch really as its just 6% difference ... or are my maths wrong?

 

[Observer]

Springs/breastropes

Not being pedantic but I thought breastropes are lines taken from a point on board directly to shore (ie right angle to fore and aft line) so are necessarily quite short and cannot accommodate tidal movement. Do you have different terminology?

I'm trying to understand how to moor alongside if significant tidal range - so bear with me. Let's assume mooring at or near high water.

As I understand it, fore and aft (bow and stern) lines are taken well forward/aft as needed for height of tide. These would have to be quite slack to allow boat to move down on water. Hang weights on these to keep some tension?

Springs (to limit fore/aft movement) are taken from midships cleat(s) ashore to approx. opposite bow/stern on shore. Again, if at high water, I assume these need plenty of slack otherwise will not be long enough as tide falls. Also hang weights on these?

The bit I'm not quite grasping here is if all lines are slack there must be lots of sideways movement if windward shore. Is that it or have I got something wrong?

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[jimi]

Re: Springs/breastropes

OK . Springs should not be slack. If they're long enough they act (almost) as radii from the mooring point so that the distance to your boat at the top and bottom of the tide is virtually the same (3X tidal range). Agree with your terminology, I was being a bit loose in my use of words. Breast ropes are irrelevant in big tidal ranges and the fore and aft lines .. unless duplicating the length of spring need to have sufficient slack to cope with the tidal range. If 3X tidal range is used on all lines then they will not be slack at any point in the tide.(although of course they will be slightly less taut or a bit loose at the top of the tide.

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[tcm]

Re: Talking mooring

Yes, i agree completely, and your maths is 100% correct. Good job you don't need to use that edit facilty which only a total donkey would rely on!

Whcih reminds me, a large commercial vessel called "The Edit Facility" has turned up in your marina and chopped your boat to bits! It must have mistaken it for a fallen-off floating container and decided it would be better to sink it. Mind you, I suppose you will pleased to be shot of the thing? The remains will be returned to you sometime over the weekend.