Locking Down Lifting Keels

[roblpm]

Hi

I own a lifting keel Parker 275 on which the keel does not lock down. The keel weighs 325kg.

Obviously in an inversion it could slide up. I am fairly sure on a mates old Bowman 36 with a lifting keel it doesn't lock down either.

Has anyone got any sensible comments on whether this is a real problem, and examples of other boats that dont have the facility to lock the keel down?

I haven't found any actual examples of i being a problem!

Cheers

Rob

 

[[70521]]

Should not be a problem; I understand that should you hit anything they are designed to swing back unto their housing. Quite sure that most boats do not spend much time inverted and the keel box should be able to contain the keel.

 

[roblpm]

Should not be a problem; I understand that should you hit anything they are designed to swing back unto their housing. Quite sure that most boats do not spend much time inverted and the keel box should be able to contain the keel.

Aha I should explain its like a dagger board. Just goes up and down. Sealed keel box (ie no possibility of water ingress into the hull) but in extremis could come out of the top of the boat.

 

[tyce]

I had a Parker 27 and i also had thoughts about this problem. I intended to put studs through the keel case that would stop it coming out if inverted. Obviously the studs would be well above the waterline and its a reasonably easy job.
However i never got round to it and I no longer own the boat.

 

[roblpm]

I had a Parker 27 and i also had thoughts about this problem. I intended to put studs through the keel case that would stop it coming out if inverted. Obviously the studs would be well above the waterline and its a reasonably easy job.
However i never got round to it and I no longer own the boat.

The only problem with that approach is that at the moment the keel box is sealed so that would impact the integrity of the keel box which is a plus point at the moment!!

 

[roblpm]

I had a Parker 27 and i also had thoughts about this problem. I intended to put studs through the keel case that would stop it coming out if inverted. Obviously the studs would be well above the waterline and its a reasonably easy job.
However i never got round to it and I no longer own the boat.

The only problem with that approach is that at the moment the keel box is sealed so that would impact the integrity of the keel box which is a plus point at the moment!!

 

[Concerto]

So if you intend to sail in extreme offshore conditions, then I would choose a different boat. Have you ever experienced a full knock down with a mast in the water? Well I have on several occassions whilst racing, but once horizontal the reduction of wind on the rig and the weight of the keel brought us quickly back upright. The only reason a boat would invert would be due to wave action, and for that to happen you would need some pretty big rollers.

So back to my original comment are you going to sail in extreme conditions offshore? If not, stop worrying.

 

[roblpm]

So if you intend to sail in extreme offshore conditions, then I would choose a different boat. Have you ever experienced a full knock down with a mast in the water? Well I have on several occassions whilst racing, but once horizontal the reduction of wind on the rig and the weight of the keel brought us quickly back upright. The only reason a boat would invert would be due to wave action, and for that to happen you would need some pretty big rollers.

So back to my original comment are you going to sail in extreme conditions offshore? If not, stop worrying.

Thanks for your reply. I have to say I am less than worried. It has been raised as a safety issue where we race! As you say I didn't buy the boat to go round Cape Horn!

 

[northwind]

I think you are trying to solve a problem that hasn't happened yet. There have been no known reports of a Parker 27/275/285 or Super Seal having suffered from the keel sliding out on knock down, and some of these boats have sailed in fairly extreme conditions, there were around 200 or so boats built to a similar design.

D

 

[roblpm]

I think you are trying to solve a problem that hasn't happened yet. There have been no known reports of a Parker 27/275/285 or Super Seal having suffered from the keel sliding out on knock down, and some of these boats have sailed in fairly extreme conditions, there were around 200 or so boats built to a similar design.

D

Quite agree. Just gathering reassurance to argue my case!

 

[BrianH]

I once owned a small 7m yacht that was a vestigial keel boat with a heavy, 12mm steel centreplate that lowered through the keel. It required a winch to raise and lower and, because I was conscious of the instability of that centreplate in a seaway I modified the casing to secure the plate by means of a retaining bolt when the plate was down. I was very aware of the damage potential of that plate slamming back up if I ever met a rough sea and was partially rolled or even inverted.

It wasn't the problem of an unsecured plate (or keel) sliding up the casing that worried me but the potential damage when she rolls upright again - a heavy weight crashing back unrestrainedly onto whatever normally restrained it - steel winch cable in my case, or with a dagger keel, structural damage to the base of the casing, below water level, where it meets the floors and hull. Such damage has happened to a Sailfish 25 that completely lost her keel - I know no details of why - but she was a sister yacht to the Ouzo, which foundered after she may have been rolled by the bow wave of the Pride of Bilbao.

 

[Concerto]

It has been raised as a safety issue where we race!

I would say that the person who raised this has forgotten the first rule of racing: It is the skippers decision whether to race or not.

You should reverse the conversation and ask them to justify their comments before making any yourself, especially anything that affects the Parker. It may be a "health and safety" issue that is a theoretically possible insurance risk for the organising club. If that is the case tell them to stuff it and see their reaction. Do not worry about it and draw their attention to the rule above. Common sense should prevail - if they have any.

My first racing yacht was a Hunter Formula 1, which in its day was an extreme racing machine with a bolt down lifting keel. They are still being raced today and a recent thread on them has comments of other people besides myself of being knocked over and putting the mast in the water. There was even one case of one nose diving and sinking. That is hard evidence you can use to show that not all fixed lifting keel boats are any safer than your Parker.

In the past I protested a race committee for breaching their own rules and took it to appeal at the RYA and won! Certainly put a cat amongst the pigeons.

 

[roblpm]

I would say that the person who raised this has forgotten the first rule of racing: It is the skippers decision whether to race or not.

You should reverse the conversation and ask them to justify their comments before making any yourself, especially anything that affects the Parker. It may be a "health and safety" issue that is a theoretically possible insurance risk for the organising club. If that is the case tell them to stuff it and see their reaction. Do not worry about it and draw their attention to the rule above. Common sense should prevail - if they have any.

My first racing yacht was a Hunter Formula 1, which in its day was an extreme racing machine with a bolt down lifting keel. They are still being raced today and a recent thread on them has comments of other people besides myself of being knocked over and putting the mast in the water. There was even one case of one nose diving and sinking. That is hard evidence you can use to show that not all fixed lifting keel boats are any safer than your Parker.

In the past I protested a race committee for breaching their own rules and took it to appeal at the RYA and won! Certainly put a cat amongst the pigeons.

Thanks for that useful post. I am letting sleeping dogs lie so hopefully this wont come to anything anyway. I agree it is totally my legal responsibility to ensure the safety of my crew and I take that very seriously. Some of my crew were moaning about having to pay £70 to join the club. I pointed out that the lifejackets that I provide for them to wear are £120!! The boat is fully functional with all working safety equipment and we only race in inshore waters.

 

[rob2]

Well, it's not directly specific to a Parker, but we had a sportsboat with a lifting daggerboard invert on the club's moorings (Southampton Water) during a storm. The board did indeed slide right out of the casing once inverted and, the ballast now being on the coachroof, the boat would not right and the mast was destroyed at low tide. So depending on your mooring, it may be worthwhile to rig something to hold the board in the casing and also lock it down while sailing in boisterous conditions, although while sailing it would require a major cock-up to invert. This might be a pin through a choice of holes in the board (sealed with o-rings) or just a rope across the top of the casing to two strong points.

Rob.

 

[William_H]

My little 21fter has a vertically lifting ballasted centre board. (100Kg) I always lock the board down for the entire season. This for safety but also because the cat 5 modified level of racing I like to do demands it. I have laid the boat over many times but never had the keel tend to move but I still feel safer regarding the boat as a fixed fin keel when the keel is locked down.
I drilled a hole through the aft end of the cb case. This is becuase when I run aground the keel tends to kick backwards and aft end up. The 5/16 inch bolt takes this thrust and indeed has bent on occasions in soaking up the force. So this bolt protects the trailing edge of the f/g keel from damage in the slot.
I did beef up the f/g of the c/b case around the bolt hole with added layers of f/g. No concerns about structural integrity. So I recommend this approach. good luck olewill

 

[roblpm]

Well, it's not directly specific to a Parker, but we had a sportsboat with a lifting daggerboard invert on the club's moorings (Southampton Water) during a storm. The board did indeed slide right out of the casing once inverted and, the ballast now being on the coachroof, the boat would not right and the mast was destroyed at low tide. So depending on your mooring, it may be worthwhile to rig something to hold the board in the casing and also lock it down while sailing in boisterous conditions, although while sailing it would require a major cock-up to invert. This might be a pin through a choice of holes in the board (sealed with o-rings) or just a rope across the top of the casing to two strong points.

Rob.

Aha one thing i don't think i explained was theat the parker 275 has 2/3 of its ballast in an iron ballast plate in the hull of the boat so this isnt comparing like with like. There is 600kg in the boat and 300kg in the keel so it would never invert on a mooring. Since I started this discussion I have realised that this is a major distinction. Boats that have all or most of thier ballast in the hull (ovni?) and those that have all of their ballast in a lifting keel. I believe the predecessor of the 275, the superseal 26 didn't have any ballast in the keel at all.

 

[mrming]

I've been on a Super Seal 26 on it's side with the mast in the water after a broach. We quickly tripped the kite halyard and she popped back up - the keel didn't go anywhere. As others have said you're only likely to get inverted by a large wave - if you don't sail in big waves then it's not a factor. Tough little boats in my experience - the one I raced had won it's class in the AZAB.

 

[Ian_Edwards]

I had a 275 for 13years, never had a problem with the keel sliding up, despite having the mast horizontal several times, broaching with a spinnaker up.

I also cruised up and down the East Coast of Scotland and around Orkney in some fairly big waves.

As already noted, they are tough little boats and very fast for there size.

Don't worry about it.

 

[Seajet]

My Anderson 22 would suffer in the same way in the event of a near 180-degree B2 knockdown, the keel could slam back; it wouldn't go through the hull, but might cause worry, less righting moment if actually stable 180 degrees inverted ( she is self righting with the keel retracted when she's right way up but I'm happy to assume the worst re inversion rather than try it ! ) and possibly an entanglement of the lift wires.

So for long now I have carried a 29" stainless tube - rudder pintle tube actually - which fits between the exposed front nib of the actual keel, and the steel deckhead fittings of the keel lifting struts; while never having been in rollover conditions, it's nice to know it's there; I would simply fit the rod between keel and deckhead then winch the keel up a few mm until all was tight.

I don't know if your set-up could allow something similar, or possibly a mild steel transverse bolt through the casing and keel ( if the casing has a strong enough part ) as a lock-down ?

It might be worth mentioning, the A22 has the top of the lifting keel left square rather than tapered so if one runs into something with keel fully down, it presents a wide area rather than a knife edge to the aft keelcase, there's also a tufnol shock absorber strip in the aft keelcase.

I only learned of these when I changed my keel plate some 30 years after the boat went out of production !

Might be worth checking for such details, and if absent, fitting at least the tufnol or similar; if the keelcase really is all around, it might take some thought while she's ashore this winter, planning, then unless you're off around Cape Horn - or Portland Bill on a bad day - get the fix planned for next winter ?

I know we're only approaching winter now, but knowing how these things go, including chatting it over with other owners...

 

[roblpm]

My Anderson 22 would suffer in the same way in the event of a near 180-degree B2 knockdown, the keel could slam back; it wouldn't go through the hull, but might cause worry, less righting moment if actually stable 180 degrees inverted ( she is self righting with the keel retracted when she's right way up but I'm happy to assume the worst re inversion rather than try it ! ) and possibly an entanglement of the lift wires.

So for long now I have carried a 29" stainless tube - rudder pintle tube actually - which fits between the exposed front nib of the actual keel, and the steel deckhead fittings of the keel lifting struts; while never having been in rollover conditions, it's nice to know it's there; I would simply fit the rod between keel and deckhead then winch the keel up a few mm until all was tight.

I don't know if your set-up could allow something similar, or possibly a mild steel transverse bolt through the casing and keel ( if the casing has a strong enough part ) as a lock-down ?

It might be worth mentioning, the A22 has the top of the lifting keel left square rather than tapered so if one runs into something with keel fully down, it presents a wide area rather than a knife edge to the aft keelcase, there's also a tufnol shock absorber strip in the aft keelcase.

I only learned of these when I changed my keel plate some 30 years after the boat went out of production !

Might be worth checking for such details, and if absent, fitting at least the tufnol or similar; if the keelcase really is all around, it might take some thought while she's ashore this winter, planning, then unless you're off around Cape Horn - or Portland Bill on a bad day - get the fix planned for next winter ?

I know we're only approaching winter now, but knowing how these things go, including chatting it over with other owners...

Thanks for all of that. The keel is lifted by a winch which sits in a fibre glass formed box so unfortunately there is nothing to wedge the top of a pole against. I think if I get round to it it will involve a bolt through the top of the keel box clamped to a length of aluminium tube holding the keel down.