Lockdown sailing

[Blue Sunray]

Which is part of the problem. People going into the supermarket and browsing FFS. Take a list, be focused, no harm in picking up something extra you see and fancy but don’t block the aisles browsing.

My wife having had 'the letter' from the NHS (PBUH) is a vulnerable person, I am now doing the shopping (some 15 years after she took it on in exchange for me doing the ironing), not only is she is doing a list but she manages the feat of putting in in the order that I will go round the store (and thus re-does it if the intended store changes). However I am sure that I might come across as browsing as I try to find the stuff. There do seem to be a lot of slightly lost looking gentlemen of a certain age wondering around peering myopically at lists.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I really have to question these people who try to describe sailing as exercise.

Curiously enough, the recent College of Policing guidance on reasonable excuses for leaving home says that "Driving for a prolonged period with only brief exercise" is not likely to be reasonable, and also that "It is lawful to drive for exercise." The logic there defeats me, but it seems to be that driving without any other exercise is fine and exercising without much driving is fine, but that a bit of both is unreasonable.

Don't try and convince us sailing can be safe, we already know it is, both in terms of not needing the RNLI every five minutes and in terms of Covid-19. Not sailing is being responsible, it's recognising how important it is as a society that we try and deal with this Pandemic together and each and every one of us doing all we can to control it.

I don't follow the logic. If sailing is safe, not sailing is doing nothing to control the disease. Why is it responsible to refrain from doing something safe? The Dutch seem to be far more sensible than we are about all this.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Years ago I was in Uruguay and being shown software used by the police there (I never imagined it would not be used back at home). They were mapping individuals known to them and their social contacts and showed us an onscreen map with all the relationship information clearly set out.

The Metropolitan Police has something similar with their "Gangs Matrix", which purports to show who in London is involved in gangs. Unfortunately it's full of wrong information, contains grossly disporportionate numbers of young black men and has had serious data protection issues. The whole idea of contact tracing systems for coronavirus gives me the willies, because the information will without doubt be misued. On th eother hand, the proposed systems are all bluetooth based, so they won't work anyway.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I spend some of my time reading other forums , hiking, golf and horses riding ,
All out door sport.
The sailing forum are the only forum where people think they are hard done by and special allowance should be given to them.
Hiking over the hills on your own or with your partner, driving a ball across a green or riding your horse across a field is as much isolated as being in a boat.
Why do some think their are a special group ,
Are sailors really that selfish?

 

[PhillM]

I spend some of my time reading other forums , hiking, golf and horses riding ,
All out door sport.
The sailing forum are the only forum where people think they are hard done by and special allowance should be given to them.
Hiking over the hills on your own or with your partner, driving a ball across a green or riding your horse across a field is as much isolated as being in a boat.
Why do some think their are a special group ,
Are sailors really that selfish?

I think you will find that horse owners are allowed to tend to their animal. All the golf courses are still being tended by staff. However, we are prevented from checking on our boats. I don't think we should be out sailing but I do worry about my little wooden boat, out on the river, and if not loved, she will deteriorate fast.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I think you will find that horse owners are allowed to tend to their animal. All the golf courses are still being tended by staff. However, we are prevented from checking on our boats. I don't think we should be out sailing but I do worry about my little wooden boat, out on the river, and if not loved, she will deteriorate fast.

They are feeding there horses and the ground may still being maintained but no one playing or riding and they not complaining about it.

Phil I can understand your worry if you boat is out on a mooring some where I too would be worried , but let's be fair everyone knew what was about to happen so everyone had time to prepare and make arrangements.
But your circumstances are different to them who just moaning they can't go for a sail.
If it was me and the boat that's valuable to me I would had it hauled out unless I could had got a better mooring .
Maybe there a reason you couldn't.
I do hope you are able to at less check it over .
Maybe if it's a boat yard mooring you could ask the boat yard to take a look good luck fingers cross

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

The Metropolitan Police has something similar with their "Gangs Matrix", which purports to show who in London is involved in gangs. Unfortunately it's full of wrong information, contains grossly disporportionate numbers of young black men and has had serious data protection issues. The whole idea of contact tracing systems for coronavirus gives me the willies, because the information will without doubt be misued. On th eother hand, the proposed systems are all bluetooth based, so they won't work anyway.

And much for much the same reason I'm uneasy about the supermarkets having access to the list of the specially vulnerable. All noble in theory, but can we trust that the info won't slide across to their financial services brethren?

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

I think you will find that horse owners are allowed to tend to their animal. All the golf courses are still being tended by staff. However, we are prevented from checking on our boats. I don't think we should be out sailing but I do worry about my little wooden boat, out on the river, and if not loved, she will deteriorate fast.

Phil, did you know that Andy the water taxi is checking boats? Pm if you need his number.

 

[Triassic]

Curiously enough, the recent College of Policing guidance on reasonable excuses for leaving home says that "Driving for a prolonged period with only brief exercise" is not likely to be reasonable, and also that "It is lawful to drive for exercise." The logic there defeats me, but it seems to be that driving without any other exercise is fine and exercising without much driving is fine, but that a bit of both is unreasonable.



I don't follow the logic. If sailing is safe, not sailing is doing nothing to control the disease. Why is it responsible to refrain from doing something safe? The Dutch seem to be far more sensible than we are about all this.

Seriously, the logic defeats you? I don't think so. Surely you can see the difference between getting in your car and driving for two and half hours to the Yorkshire Moors so you can have a brief stroll and getting in your car to drive five miles out of town so you can run your two Spaniels off the lead in a field? Both involve driving your car for exercise, one is reasonable, the other not. The advice from the College of Policing makes that very clear.

With regard to the second point it is not about the act of sailing being safe. It is about the regulations requiring you to stay at home unless you have a reasonable excuse not to. The regulations do not say you can leave your home to do something you consider safe and it's irresponsible to try and make that activity somehow fit the criteria for something reasonable.

Do you think the government should have carried out some kind of in depth analysis of every perceivable activity the population might want to carry out and included it in the regulations?

 

[dgadee]

The Metropolitan Police has something similar with their "Gangs Matrix", which purports to show who in London is involved in gangs. Unfortunately it's full of wrong information, contains grossly disporportionate numbers of young black men and has had serious data protection issues. The whole idea of contact tracing systems for coronavirus gives me the willies, because the information will without doubt be misued. On th eother hand, the proposed systems are all bluetooth based, so they won't work anyway.

Of course these contain wrong data. You've got to spend huge sums to make the data correct. As the Chinese seem to do. If government here can't organise PPE it's unlikely they could do tracking properly either.

 

[Triassic]

The Metropolitan Police has something similar with their "Gangs Matrix", which purports to show who in London is involved in gangs. Unfortunately it's full of wrong information, contains grossly disporportionate numbers of young black men and has had serious data protection issues. The whole idea of contact tracing systems for coronavirus gives me the willies, because the information will without doubt be misued. On th eother hand, the proposed systems are all bluetooth based, so they won't work anyway.

I resisted the bait initially but that's pretty strong stuff with some serious undertones so I think I'm entitled to ask you to reference your source, unless of course you are speaking from personal experience?

 

[Denek]

We were told we could not go into Morrison’s together. We were shopping for ourselves and two different elderly neighbors and so as long as we had two trolleys we were allowed in. I guess it’s right to keep the stores as empty as possible. We are cycling down to our local beach for a walk and occasionally driving down if we combine with a shopping trip. We live about 1.5 miles from the beach at Kessingland.
so does anyone think this is unreasonable?
I wish I could get to our boat as there are things I would like to bring back but it’s a 45 minute drive away which I think would be too far to drive and anyway the marina is shut.
hopefully we only have to wait a few weeks and I consider myself lucky that neither my wife or myself have caught it. We can go out into the garden we are lucky our youngest son lives in a flat in Northampton alone Without any outside space.
count our blessings say.

 

[dgadee]

I resisted the bait initially but that's pretty strong stuff with some serious undertones so I think I'm entitled to ask you to reference your source, unless of course you are speaking from personal experience?

Amnesty International's view: Trapped in the Gangs Matrix

 

[PhillM]

They are feeding there horses and the ground may still being maintained but no one playing or riding and they not complaining about it.

Phil I can understand your worry if you boat is out on a mooring some where I too would be worried , but let's be fair everyone knew what was about to happen so everyone had time to prepare and make arrangements.
But your circumstances are different to them who just moaning they can't go for a sail.
If it was me and the boat that's valuable to me I would had it hauled out unless I could had got a better mooring .
Maybe there a reason you couldn't.
I do hope you are able to at less check it over .
Maybe if it's a boat yard mooring you could ask the boat yard to take a look good luck fingers cross

My lift was due on the 27th March. I cancelled it because I did not want her left to dry out, as that is a death sentence on a wooden boat. I am sure she is safe on her mooring. However, without TLC wood deteriorates. What she needs right now is a few coats of varnish, perhaps a little pump of the bilge and a good all over clean. Unlike a GRP boat, pointing a pressure hose at her for half an hour, is not going to be the clean up strategy. Every week that i am not able to get to her will result in days of sanding and varnishing/painting. Sitting at home and knowing that I could be properly socially distanced, on my boat, on my own, keeping her in great shape, is frustrating. Oh and I live within 10 mins drive or 30 mins cycle from the boat. Sadly, the Harbour Master has closed the river and is banning all movements, including dinghy out to the moorings.

For the avoidance of doubt, this is not a moan about not sailing. Oh and last week I had a dose of it myself (still self-isolating at home) so I know how infectious it is. And before anyone accuses me of being reckless, I caught it from a key worker who is living in my house. So, I was not out and about doing anything silly.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I spend some of my time reading other forums , hiking, golf and horses riding ,
All out door sport.
The sailing forum are the only forum where people think they are hard done by and special allowance should be given to them.
Hiking over the hills on your own or with your partner, driving a ball across a green or riding your horse across a field is as much isolated as being in a boat.
Why do some think their are a special group ,
Are sailors really that selfish?

Plenty of people hiking and horseriding still around here, and any substantial number of people on a golf course would be a problem. As far as I can see, nobody is actually sailing, but I find it had to see any activity as selfish if done in a way which causes no appreciable additional risk. Sailing from island to island and going on shops each would clearly be unwise and selfish; going out for a solo or family day sail as the Dutch are doing in great numbers isn't either.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

....... The sailing forum are the only forum where people think they are hard done by and special allowance should be given to them. ......

I don't think that conclsuion stands up to scrutiny. Some may think they are special but the majority appear to not make any comment on it, at all. It could even be conferred that, based on the behaviour of the majority of people in this country, that the majority of sailors agree with the intent of social isolation.

If you frequent a place that has a degree of complaining and take part in the discussions involving complaints, then it is hardly surprising that complaints feature significantly. At any time on this form, the number of active members and the number of sailors expressing how hard done they are, demonstrates that the majority have not expressed an opinion on how hard done they are.

I would guess that the majority of sailors understand the situation we are all in, accept it, while lamenting the fact that weather is good and a sail would just the tonic needed, but alas we have been asked not to.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Seriously, the logic defeats you? I don't think so. Surely you can see the difference between getting in your car and driving for two and half hours to the Yorkshire Moors so you can have a brief stroll and getting in your car to drive five miles out of town so you can run your two Spaniels off the lead in a field? Both involve driving your car for exercise, one is reasonable, the other not. The advice from the College of Policing makes that very clear.

One of us is misreading the rules, and I think it's you. They say that driving a short distance in order to exercise is fine (I agree), that driving a long distance to exercise isn't (I agree) and going for a drive around for exercise - ie as exercise in itself, without getting out - is fine. The gear shift of my old Citroen has a fair travel, but I don't really think I get much of a workout from waggling it around.

Do you think the government should have carried out some kind of in depth analysis of every perceivable activity the population might want to carry out and included it in the regulations?

No, and neither do they, because they said "without a reasonable excuse, such as ...". Unfortunately that has left the decision about what is reasonable up to the police, who have a pretty lamentable record in assessing reasonableness of behaviour, particularly in BME people.

When things start to ease up I expect the rules will be similarly framed around principals. "Any outdoor activity which does not involve close proximity to people outside your family", maybe. Which would also be absolutely fine now, of course.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I resisted the bait initially but that's pretty strong stuff with some serious undertones so I think I'm entitled to ask you to reference your source, unless of course you are speaking from personal experience?

Ah. I think I understand your attitude rather better now. OK, gangs matrix. I suggest you start with Met gangs matrix may be discriminatory, review finds which begins

and then read this from the ICO: ICO finds Metropolitan Police Service’s Gangs Matrix breached data protection laws

After which this lot should explain the issues even more.

New Metropolitan Police database raises concerns of Gangs Matrix repeat
Police remove 374 names from gangs matrix
The grim reality of life under Gangs Matrix, London's controversial predictive policing tool
Trapped in the Gangs Matrix

If it's the bluetooth gag you're worrying about ... have you ever tried to transfer a file with it?

 

[jordanbasset]

One of us is misreading the rules, and I think it's you. They say that driving a short distance in order to exercise is fine (I agree), that driving a long distance to exercise isn't (I agree) and going for a drive around for exercise - ie as exercise in itself, without getting out - is fine. The gear shift of my old Citroen has a fair travel, but I don't really think I get much of a workout from waggling it around.

That is not my reading of the rules, the point you are referring to in the guidance notes that 'It is lawful to drive for exercise' should be taken in the context of what has been said before, in other words you can drive if the exercise you are talking is longer than the driving
Either way these are only guidance notes, the law is what matters and you will not find anything in the law which says it is lawful to drive for exercise.

 

[PhillM]

I would guess that the majority of sailors understand the situation we are all in, accept it, while lamenting the fact that weather is good and a sail would just the tonic needed, but alas we have been asked not to.

+1 - its no crime to have a whinge from time to time. Whinging does not make anyone an inherently bad person. In fact boards like there are here to share the good time and the bad.