Lobster pot lines Warning

[Fascadale]

Perhaps I am just complacent but in forty odd years of sailing, much of it overnight racing in coastal water I have never fouled our boat on a pot buoy............................................................................................................................................ I can not recall coming across a yacht fouled on a pot line either or heard an emergency call about it on vhf so I suspect it is not a great problem in Northern waters. We did sail straight in to one we failed to spot earlier this summer and it did make quite a smack on the keel before emerging behind us.

However if it is so bad down south I would not object to a regulation defining the size of pot markers and allowing sub standard buoys and the gear attached to them to be removed as jetsam. That should not damage the living of the commercial creel men.

Totally agree.

Suggestions that pots be lit are impractical.

I suspect that the onus to avoid pots lies with the amateur (mainly summer weekend) sailor on the water for pleasure rather than the professional trying to make a living.

I do agree that there is a subset of fisherman whose buoys are very minimalist and therefore require extra vigilance from the yachtsman.

Razor blades embedded in pot ropes, how practical is that?

Ill lit pots at night? I have sailed through the buoys off Portland Bill. Not many of them. Would a sensible sailor take the inside passage in the dark knowing of the well advertised pot buoy danger. Try the coast off Redcar. Greatest density of fishing buoys I have seen round the British coast, but easily avoided to seaward.

 

[Seajet]

Totally agree.

Suggestions that pots be lit are impractical.

I suspect that the onus to avoid pots lies with the amateur (mainly summer weekend) sailor on the water for pleasure rather than the professional trying to make a living.

I do agree that there is a subset of fisherman whose buoys are very minimalist and therefore require extra vigilance from the yachtsman.

Razor blades embedded in pot ropes, how practical is that?

Ill lit pots at night? I have sailed through the buoys off Portland Bill. Not many of them. Would a sensible sailor take the inside passage in the dark knowing of the well advertised pot buoy danger. Try the coast off Redcar. Greatest density of fishing buoys I have seen round the British coast, but easily avoided to seaward.

This is not the case; as I mentioned even solar lights of the type virtually given away by petrol stations would be a great help, slightly modified.

In 40 years sailing the only properly marked pots I have seen have been in French waters; British pot markers are anything to hand,as mentioned the operator doesn't care about visibility as he is guided by GPS, and some fishermen are worried about rivals stealing their catch so presumably avoid anything helpfully visible !

'Professional' is not an apt description for someone leaving pot markers he knows may ensnare boats, remember plenty of yachts, sail & motor are professional, and I'd suggest a lot more concerned with seamanship and consideration to others than such fishermen are.

I don't use Portland inshore passage at night, but why should it be made out of bounds by greedy inconsiderate pot layers ?

The marker buoys there are towed underwater during strong periods of current ( ie most of the time at Portland ! ) and are still very difficult to spot in daylight.

As I mentioned, there are markers made of small dark blue plastic cans right on the approach to Chichester; how considerate or seamanlike is that ?!

Whether a yacht is being operated for leisure or professional use, people laying traps which may endanger boat and crew can hardly call themselves professionals, and certainly not seamen.

 

[Quandary]

Whether a yacht is being operated for leisure or professional use, people laying traps which may endanger boat and crew can hardly call themselves professionals, and certainly not seamen.[/QUOTE

It sound like you have a problem that we don't. I presume you are getting hung up on these buoys all the time with a problem as severe as the one you describe, while here, as I said above, despite many creel fishermen operating, yachts move freely. Many of our destinations are islands and remote communities where lobster and prawn fishing together with processing and transporting to the markets in Spain is a vital part of the economy, and part of the joy of cruising there is sitting down to some fresh langoustines, so my sympathy is still with the creel fishermen. Creels are only laid in comparatively shallow water so in places like Loch Fyne or the Sound of Mull there is a passage clear of all of them. I can imagine that it is harder to find that further south. Trawling for nethrops is prevalent on the west coast but there is a premium for creel caught fish because both the prawns and the marine environment are better. We are also probably in closer contact with the creel boats because there are less of us and we are sharing moorings and harbours with them, it is not a 'them and us' situation here, we co-exist happily. The 'razor blade' story sounds like fantasy to us.
I don't think I would enjoy sailing much in an area where I felt in constant danger and where I regarded the other users of the sea as enemies, but before you all rush to come north think about the midges, the roaring tides and the lack of pontoons with shore power.

 

[afterpegassus]

In 40 years sailing the only properly marked pots I have seen have been in French waters; British pot markers are anything to hand,as mentioned the operator doesn't care about visibility as he is guided by GPS, and some fishermen are worried about rivals stealing their catch so presumably avoid anything helpfully visible !

"40 years sailing" is clearly implying a broad experience and in that case if the only properly marked pots seen have been in French waters, then I would suggest a failure to maintain an adequate lookout......

 

[Seajet]

"40 years sailing" is clearly implying a broad experience and in that case if the only properly marked pots seen have been in French waters, then I would suggest a failure to maintain an adequate lookout......

On the contrary, my crews usually take the p out of me for my insistence on a good lookout ( playing the sheets is another favourite ) - as evidenced by my seeing a lot of hazardous pot markers but managing to dodge them, except at night when it is pardon the pun, pot luck !

Of course this could be the same as Jasper Carrots' description of mother in law driving, " never had an accident but seen hundreds ! "

As mentioned you don't seem to have the same scale of problem in Scottish waters, the only time I sailed there - Dysart to Port Edgar - I don't recall any pots, but it was a while ago.

I suspect also Scottish waters demand a more professional type of fisherman, Darwin taking care of the rest...

 

[Fascadale]

In 40 years sailing the only properly marked pots I have seen have been in French waters; British pot markers are anything to hand,as mentioned the operator doesn't care about visibility as he is guided by GPS, and some fishermen are worried about rivals stealing their catch so presumably avoid anything helpfully visible !

You do not have to come to Scotland to see well marked pots. I have sailed all the way round England: there are plenty of well marked pots there, such as off Redcar, off Brighton, around Falmouth and very many others I have forgotten. I saw a few shoddy markers but they are just amongst the many hazards of the sea.

I don't use Portland inshore passage at night, but why should it be made out of bounds by greedy inconsiderate pot layers ?

There are plenty of places I would not choose to sail through at night; pots, rocks, tides, sandbanks, density of traffic are all factors which influence decisions. I'm not sure I would do the Cuan Sound in the dark and there are not many creels there.

 

[elioti]

I have seen poorly marked buoys almost totally submerged by the strong currents near start point, and agree they are a menace! Have only seen well marked ones in France. I have not done much night sailing but came back from France at night this time last year and hit what was likely to be a crab pot buoy at 2am whilst 20 miles out. Revs dropped and there was a banging under the hull, luckily i put the boat in reverse and it went. Its not about keeping a good lookout, as said many are almost completely submerged!

 

[Seajet]

You do not have to come to Scotland to see well marked pots. I have sailed all the way round England: there are plenty of well marked pots there, such as off Redcar, off Brighton, around Falmouth and very many others I have forgotten. I saw a few shoddy markers but they are just amongst the many hazards of the sea.

There are plenty of places I would not choose to sail through at night; pots, rocks, tides, sandbanks, density of traffic are all factors which influence decisions. I'm not sure I would do the Cuan Sound in the dark and there are not many creels there.

I avoid Brighton like the plague, but there are huge numbers of badly marked pots between Chichester and Falmouth.

Portland inshore passage is otherwise quite possible unless it's a really dark night, Adlard Coles mentions going around there at night in one of his books; it's also a major avenue of safety compared to The Race, could well be a matter of life and death to some people and should not be rendered unsafe by selfish clowns.

 

[maxi77]

You do not have to come to Scotland to see well marked pots. I have sailed all the way round England: there are plenty of well marked pots there, such as off Redcar, off Brighton, around Falmouth and very many others I have forgotten. I saw a few shoddy markers but they are just amongst the many hazards of the sea.

They may be amongst the hazards of the sea but they do not have to be that is the point. Some countries have rules and enforce them and pot markers are very visible, so it can be done. Those who make excuses for the slovenly fishermen who leave them are just as bad as they are.

 

[Razorfish]

Razor blades?-there you are pot hauling;coiling the lines;emptying the pots;stacking the pots.You are going to get your hands cut to ribbons by the razor blades and come off worse than the thief..
Just sounds a bit far fetched to me.

Yep I agree - suspect the fisherman was winding you up or spreading disinformation to reduce theft from pots - all too common I am afraid.

Its not normally us yachties but divers certainly do help themselves or even open up all the pots in a fleet to let out the crabs and lobsters. Grrr.

 

[Fascadale]

Those who make excuses for the slovenly fishermen who leave them are just as bad as they are.

A little harsh I think, and I agree that they are a man made hazard whose dangers could be minimised.

This issue is raised from time to time and has, in the past led to forumites making intemperate and distasteful comments such as

"Through this discussion, and after thoughtful analysis we realized that fishermen are a category who only take from a system without returning any value back to the system they extract resources from, and therefore on a biological basis they can be classified as parasites." (Page 10, post 97) from this thread

I really do not think that the yachting community would wish to be associated with such attitudes. Perhaps a little more tolerance to the sometimes unsatisfactory efforts of others to make a living might improve the "stuck up" "toff" "elitist " image that many, mistakenly, have of us yachtsman

 

[Seajet]

I think any talk of 'yachtsmen' being elitist is completely ignoring the point; yacht owners don't endanger the progress and lives of fishermen through selfish carelessness.

When I did a sailing exam a while ago one of the students doing Day Skipper was a full time ( professional seems a bit strong ) fisherman; he had to be physically restrained from simply throwing anything plastic straight over the side.

One only has to look at the general flotsam one sees at sea or in harbour corners to identify it easily as coming from fishing boats.

Then look at the state of the average English - I use that term deliberately, Scottish are different - fishing boat, usually a mass of poorly maintained rust.

Then look at fishing boats at places where people really are poor, all over the world; generally the boat is immaculate and the pride and joy of the owner.

This is the careless attitude which has led to thoughtless siting of lobster pots where they can potentially cause great harm...

I suspect it will take a tragedy with a boat & family being overwhelmed and lost - but an eye witness surviving - to get legislation to force decent pot markers, the fishermen responsible obviously won't do it out of any thoughts of responsibility or seamanship.

 

[simon barefoot]

Wotayottie was asked if the fisherman telling him about the razor blades was winding him up; he thinks not.

Even a large pot marker buoy is useless and still dangerous at night, but of course the fishermen don't operate at night and don't care about those who do.

I suspect it will take legislation and enforcement, but surely the only real answer is danbuoys with at least reflective material, if not some sort of solar charged light, as in garden lights ?

Pots are laid in the Portland Race inshore passage where the current pulls them just underwater, which I think criminal; a boat pinned by the stern there could easily be overwhelmed.

An example of the careless attitude of fishermen is the line of dark blue ex - DIY store plastic cans on the direct line between Chichester West Pole entrance beacon and the Dolphin passage.

I asked 'Fisherman' of these forums about this problem, he stated - as suspected earlier in these posts - that there is a sub-breed of unlicensed amateur types who are particularly inconsiderate, these are people just trying to provide lobsters for their mates' pub...

I am lucky in that my boat has an engine in a well so if the engine was in and got caught I should be able to part lift the motor and apply an old breadknife I keep handy; I shudder when I think of another boat I had with a saildrive and no cutter.

If I had a boat with an inboard I'd make a bee line for a garden centre / DIY store and get one of those long handled pruning jobs; some have a serrated blade on the outside edge which I'd think useful.

Fishermen don't work at night????? WTF was I doing on deck for all those hours when it was dark then. Jeez, I obviously dont know a job I spent many years doing... or more to the point YOU don't...

 

[maxi77]

A little harsh I think, and I agree that they are a man made hazard whose dangers could be minimised.

This issue is raised from time to time and has, in the past led to forumites making intemperate and distasteful comments such as

"Through this discussion, and after thoughtful analysis we realized that fishermen are a category who only take from a system without returning any value back to the system they extract resources from, and therefore on a biological basis they can be classified as parasites." (Page 10, post 97) from this thread

I really do not think that the yachting community would wish to be associated with such attitudes. Perhaps a little more tolerance to the sometimes unsatisfactory efforts of others to make a living might improve the "stuck up" "toff" "elitist " image that many, mistakenly, have of us yachtsman

I have no problem at all with the resonsible fisherman who marks his gear properly and is prepared to observe the rule of the road. Too many though seem to use the 'working for a living' excuse for irresponsible and ofen downright dangerous behaviour, just like various van and lorry drivers on the roads. At the end of the day there is no excuse for irresponsible behaviour. As for pot markers other countries have rules and and enforce them which makes life better for all

 

[Tranona]

Perhaps I am just complacent but in forty odd years of sailing, much of it overnight racing in coastal water I have never fouled our boat on a pot buoy. The only time I experienced a fouled prop was in E. Loch Tarbert harbour and the buoy was one of those litle pick ups laid by the harbour master using blue floating polypropylene line, as an anchor pick up for the outside boat on the long trots of twenty boats that they had when the Scottish series was a much bigger event than these days (we used to have an entry of forty Sigma 33s moored each night in two long trots, very sociable). I can not recall coming across a yacht fouled on a pot line either or heard an emergency call about it on vhf so I suspect it is not a great problem in Northern waters. We did sail straight in to one we failed to spot earlier this summer and it did make quite a smack on the keel before emerging behind us.
However if it is so bad down south I would not object to a regulation defining the size of pot markers and allowing sub standard buoys and the gear attached to them to be removed as jetsam. That should not damage the living of the commercial creel men.

You have been very fortunate. A couple of years ago a map was published based on the CHIRP reports showing the areas where there have been a high incidence of reports of fouling on pot markes. Unsurprisingly, the heavy concentrations were off the headlands on the South Coast - as Seajet says. West of Shingles Bank, Christchurch Ledge, SAtandfast Point, Peverill Point, St Albans Head, Portland and so on to Lands End. All of these are in areas where there is heavy yachting traffic, and those of us who sail along this coast have little option but to sail through the areas where the pots are. A passage from Hurst Castle to Poole inevitably goes through 3 densely populated pot fishing areas, where you can often have as many as 10 assorted markers in view at any one time. Not surprising that the majority of boats in harbours like Lymington and Poole are fitted with rope cutters.

Just to illustrate how dangerous they can be about 20 years ago I listened on the VHF to an emergency off Standfast Point where a boat had picked up a marker and was moored by its rudder and stearngear to the seabed with a 3 knot spring tide running. Skipper went over the side to cut free and was hit by the stern of the boat. Fortunately he was tied on, but his wife had to call for help to recover his body. Watched the chopper land next to the yard where I was working.

You soon learn where the worst places are, but sometimes when the tide is running hard and the sea gets up across the reock ledges it is like being in a pinball game trying to dodge the markers.

 

[Quandary]

. Those who make excuses for the slovenly fishermen who leave them are just as bad as they are.

I do not make excuses for slovenly fishermen, in fact I have never met any, those in our community are quite the opposite; I have met quite a few yachties who might be regarded as slovenly though, but unlike you, I have never felt the need to condemn them. If I am 'as bad as they are' and just a slob I wonder how you were able to deduce that so easily, but thanks for drawing it to my attention.

 

[Quandary]

The density of markers suggest that you creel boats need to modernize their operations a bit, a West Coast creel boat with a creel winch and chute on the back will lay a string of up to 100 creels marked by only a single buoy. So it is only very close inshore that you tend to find a marker buoy within a 1/4 to 1/2 a mile of the next one. I am always impressed with the size of the stack of linked pots and the tidiness of the miles of rope that link them when they are back on the slipway for cleaning. With that spacing the chances of striking one are therefore a lot less.
Our local creelman had a good laugh at the razor blade story, he refused to accept that anyone believed it.

 

[maxi77]

I do not make excuses for slovenly fishermen, in fact I have never met any, those in our community are quite the opposite; I have met quite a few yachties who might be regarded as slovenly though, but unlike you, I have never felt the need to condemn them. If I am 'as bad as they are' and just a slob I wonder how you were able to deduce that so easily, but thanks for drawing it to my attention.

They are slovenly in their way of doing their business, using poor equipment and placing it in place that put others at sea, including other fishermen at risk. That is indefensible in my book as in plenty of places fishermen manage to use proper kit and lay it with some consideration of others. As I have said I have no problem whatsoever with responsible fishermen I only am upset with those who put others at risk and especialy those who do that and then try to justify it by claiming they have to earn a living. especially as there are so many who demonstrate that such bad behaviour is not needed to earn a living.

If the cap fits etc you choose

 

[wotayottie]

Yep I agree - suspect the fisherman was winding you up or spreading disinformation to reduce theft from pots - all too common I am afraid.

The guy I spoke to was a middle aged man who clearly was no fool - it wasnt some thick young yobbo. Was he spreading disinformation? I have no way of knowing for sure but nothing suggested he was. Except that a general policy of adding razor blades or fish hooks is clearly impractical so I suspect that it he did so at all, then he did so to one pot which had been emptied a few times. He did comment, and there was evidence on his boat, that he used zip ties to make sure some pots could not come "accidentally" open.

There are lots of these stories about - wire traces to avoid being cut by rope cutters or even chain. I guess the potters have a theft problem with other potters and maybe divers.

 

[Seajet]

Fishermen don't work at night????? WTF was I doing on deck for all those hours when it was dark then. Jeez, I obviously dont know a job I spent many years doing... or more to the point YOU don't...

'On deck' infers a decent size fishing boat; I've seen plenty of those operating at night, but not pot boats.