LOA for berthing: include bowsprit or not?

birdseye said:
Probably not but definitely a bit odd, feeling ashamed of what other people do. You must be permanently ashamed mind you, every time you see someone speeding or dropping litter or overstaying their parking time not to mention chatting to the publican with last years tax in gold round his neck.

You got the wrong word. Replace "ashamed" with "pious" and you have what you meant to say.
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Birdseye, you have got it very wrong. "Pious" , according to my dictionary is "devout, religious", neither of which is applicable in this context, or "hypocritically virtuous". As a point of principle I have always told marinas what Resolution's actual LOA is, and the beam if relevant, and then paid the appropriate charge. To lie deliberately in order to be charged less is just dishonest and I am ashamed that so many fellow sailors on this forum seem to be willing to do this. I would like to think that we were mostly decent people, honest in our dealings with each other, even for smallish amounts of money.
 
Is it not just good manners to haul up the bowsprit anyway to avoid restricting anyone else's access? I'm trying to recall the last time I saw a gaffer that didn't do that in a marina and I can't.

With the bowsprit up (or retracted if modern sporty type) I can't see any valid reason a marina would have to charge for it.
 
As long as Idon't bang my head or shoulder on one poking over the pontoon, that is fine. My marina allows dinghies in davits without extra charge but if reversed in, not overhanging the dock. Ours actually are 50% over the swim platform and anyways we go bows in from choice. boats are allocated slips by size and expected to be within that size, if you are in a slip designated for a longer boat you pay for the slip size not the boat LOA, the fingers are full length sturdy things with a piling on the outer end not bouncy little tapered diving boards. when we lived on a 47 ft motor yacht we paid for a 50ft slip and were reversed in, we tried a 46ft slip but our bow plank/anchor stuck out too far because the triangular fillet in the corner between finger and dock prevented us getting every inch backed in as the actress said to the bishop. that added $30/month to our bill. NOW at 36ft and bows in the triangular fillet has no effect and we are paying $40/month less than with the motor yacht and no longer on the 'rich buggers' dock, our slip now is even more sheltered and the resident natives less snooty, plus we have 3ft more depth at LW as well, win, win.
 
Hi all

Last year while floating up and down the South coast I noticed several times that from 30 foot up was a extra price hike so when repoting to the HM's Office I reported my pride and joy as 29foot 12" !!. three times I got the 26foot to 29 foot rate just for my cheek.

Just shows a bit of polite humour can save £'ss

:o
 
Resolution said:
Am I alone in feeling ashamed that so many respondents to this thread are happily disclosing their dishonesty in declaring false measurements? To knowingly understate LOA when you know that is the basis on which the berth charge will be calculated is simply cheating the marina. Or fraud.
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There's another side to this. Some marina operators have arbitrarily chosen to use a basis for charging which maximises their income rather than reflecting the relative size of boats or the berth they will fit in. Naturally this disadvantages some boats more than others and if their owners were in a position to negotiate they would never agree to it.

My starting point for negotiation would be the waterline length because that's that's indisputably the space my boat takes up in the water.

It would be different if we all had to fit our boats into boxes but we don't so we shouldn't have to pay for it as if we did.
 
James_Calvert said:
There's another side to this. Some marina operators have arbitrarily chosen to use a basis for charging which maximises their income rather than reflecting the relative size of boats or the berth they will fit in. Naturally this disadvantages some boats more than others and if their owners were in a position to negotiate they would never agree to it.

My starting point for negotiation would be the waterline length because that's that's indisputably the space my boat takes up in the water.

It would be different if we all had to fit our boats into boxes but we don't so we shouldn't have to pay for it as if we did.
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James
Indeed there are two sides to the commercial transaction of paying for a berth and of course a marina operator will be trying to maximise revenues. But the marina owner or operator has the first call in terms of the basis on which they offer the berth for rent. You as boat owner then have the options of a) accepting their terms, b) trying to negotiate with them, or c) going somewhere else.
All pretty straightforward commercial practice, same as in any shop. It is fact that many marinas will negotiate for annual berth contracts, and some will even for overnight stays.
As to the basis of calculation, I have seen rates based on LOA of the boat, LOA x Beam = "square footage" in some Med marinas, and pontoon length in a few cases. The latter is probably less popular with marinas because most fingers are shorter than the boat and you might end up with very large boats on ridiculously short fingers, with fairways being blocked. LOA is relatively easy to police approximately unless you are hosting an Old Gaffers meet. LOA x Beam is probably the fairest method when you think about it.

Your suggestion of waterline length is entertaining; how would you resolve the conflict with two boats whose overhangs coincide in the same airspace?
Peter
 
Resolution said:
James
Indeed there are two sides to the commercial transaction of paying for a berth and of course a marina operator will be trying to maximise revenues. But the marina owner or operator has the first call in terms of the basis on which they offer the berth for rent. You as boat owner then have the options of a) accepting their terms, b) trying to negotiate with them, or c) going somewhere else.
All pretty straightforward commercial practice, same as in any shop. It is fact that many marinas will negotiate for annual berth contracts, and some will even for overnight stays.
As to the basis of calculation, I have seen rates based on LOA of the boat, LOA x Beam = "square footage" in some Med marinas, and pontoon length in a few cases. The latter is probably less popular with marinas because most fingers are shorter than the boat and you might end up with very large boats on ridiculously short fingers, with fairways being blocked. LOA is relatively easy to police approximately unless you are hosting an Old Gaffers meet. LOA x Beam is probably the fairest method when you think about it.

Your suggestion of waterline length is entertaining; how would you resolve the conflict with two boats whose overhangs coincide in the same airspace?
Peter
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Good question! I can think of a few possibilities but anyway you've obviously got my point.?
 
James_Calvert said:
Good question! I can think of a few possibilities but anyway you've obviously got my point.��
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Your LWL does not have logic on its side. It is not the water space you occupy but the total space. The marina owns the space above the water as well and if you are occupying it they are entitled to charge you for it. In a hotel you don't just pay for the bed space you pay for the room even though when you are asleep you only occupy the space covered by your body.
 
lpdsn said:
Is it not just good manners to haul up the bowsprit anyway to avoid restricting anyone else's access? I'm trying to recall the last time I saw a gaffer that didn't do that in a marina and I can't.

With the bowsprit up (or retracted if modern sporty type) I can't see any valid reason a marina would have to charge for it.
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Ours is a fixed bowsprit, and so does not retract in any way. Would that it did.
 
Lyndsey Doyle said:
Good afternoon. If possible, I hand over my SSR card in the office, and they get the details from it, which don't include the bowsprit naturally...
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It seems to me perfectly reasonable to give the marina the dimensions from the boat's SSR certificate -- or to just hand them the certificate itself.

The guidance notes for SSR application state this: 'Overall length' is the distance between the foreside of the foremost fixed structure and the aftside of the aftermost permanently fixed structure of the ship. However, it is clear from the drawings accompanying the guidance notes that overhanging pulpits/pushpits are not deemed to contribute to overall length.

This of course assumes the original measurements are true.
 
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Part 1 registration takes the measurement from the rudder post, even more betterer for us. But seriously, no marina has ever charged us for bowsprit or davits.
 
Colvic Watson said:
Part 1 registration takes the measurement from the rudder post, even more betterer for us. But seriously, no marina has ever charged us for bowsprit or davits.
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You can't have been far!

Brighton charged me for my bumpkin ( a short bit of plank extending from the transom to support the back stay). They measured the boat in my absence and sent me a revised annual bill, came to almost £400.00. Part 1 Registration and the original 1935 Laurence Giles specification cut no ice. The design had grown from 7.7m to 8m.

Some will charge if your tender is secured to the transom; adding the length of the tender.
 
Colvic Watson said:
Brighton didn't charge me extra
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They don't bother with visitors - like most marinas they take the easy way of believing the owner. However if you are a "resident" then most marinas will measure as the extra income will be significant. There are other, safety reasons for ensuring they measure the length the boat takes up in the berth as layouts assume minimum widths between boats in lanes to allow for safe turns. So a bowsprit sticking out into a lane permanently can seriously limit usable lane width.
 
Speaking bowsprit.

Last year a sailing yacht had anchored so close to us that his hydraulic gangway gut stuck against the roller furling at the end of our bowsprit. It was a 54 feet yacht, maybe not as heavy but a lot bigger than our boat. Could not let out more chain because I was already close to some under water rocks.
The skipper of that charter yacht had his own peculiar ideas about anchoring space but was forced to leave by his own clients who found they did not want to damage “Le petite bateau mignonne “

Some days later I was lashing a wooden spinnaker pole to the bowsprit, extending about three feet.
I wanted to have a look how I could rig the top down furler I had bought. After my test, I left the lashed pole in position, remembering the close encounter and thinking that wooden stick would at least protect the roller reefing system on the end of our bowsprit. Sort of crushing zone.

A week later, anchored in the corner of a bay where not even local fishing boats could pass me ( We had one feet of water under our keel ) a Hydra water taxi came storming in and speeded into my extension. Big dry craccckk, extension gone. No big loss, just a piece of wood, lucky for the taxi driver and his passengers the pole was only 2” thick.

I was on the boat of a friend, saw the accident happen. No problem, just a piece of wood. Taxi boat stayed around, went asking where the owner was. I then rowed over, taxi driver offered to have a new spinnaker pole made in Hydra by a friend. First time I met a taxi driver who was not a crook.

A few years before we ware anchored in front of Göcek Turkey. Very busy anchorage, so I applied our “Extreme” anchor light. Two 12 led spots, one directed on the davids / dinghy, one directed at the bowsprit. Looks like a small miniature gin palace. If you don´t see our boat then you are blind or drunk. Or both. I know why I do this, we have been run in to twice while anchored. ( Black hull )

If an inflatable dingy putter´s into our boat it is funny. First you hear the thump / screeck of the air sausage, then some dryer thumps, probably the heads of the front passengers. Some mumbling and off they go. If it is a RIB at high speed it is not funny anymore. A rather big wooden fishing boat is no fun either.
That night I heard a heavy scrunch, went on deck, saw nothing. Next day I was taking away the riding weight of the second anchor rode and saw blood on the bobstay chain.
Widow makers they are.
 
OldBawley,

certainly not your fault though was it ?!

I knew a chap who went around Falmouth with a ' serious drinker ' chum on a night-time pub crawl in a speedboat; this was years ago but that doesn't excuse it...

They were haring along in the dark ' merrily ' in every sense, when the windscreen exploded; somehow they managed to duck in time - they'd gone under the mooring chain of one of the big ships...
 
Have to admit that I myself had a little miscalculation once at night. However, I was rowing our rigid dingy. Rowing means your looking the wrong way, I had a nice wind pushing me and was in a hurry to get on board when I rowed under some catamaran.
Unintentionally made a lot of noise with my oars and head, nobody home, just a cat on a mooring.
 
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