Liverpool marina

[Billy300]

Has anyone visited liverpool marina recently? Ir a berth holder there?
I visited last week and was very disappointed the way it has gone down hill since my last visit a few years ago.
Lock times are every hour which for us meant a 50 minute wait in the Mersey until the next opening. To do with water levels apparently and the berth holders I spoke to certainly weren't happy with this. There is no staff on duty over weekends and even the friday we arrived required 2 visits to the office to catch a staff member to book in and pay.
They have 3 party boats, which are wide beam canal boats, rented out to stag and hen parties mainly, most weekends apparently, with all the noise and disturbance these would produce.
According to the berth holders I spoke with the electricity on their pontoon was off for 3 weeks a couple of weeks ago and the water had also gone off that week.
Rather bizarrely you can only buy diesel online and have to specify in 20 litre increments how much you require.
The berth holders I spoke with where very fed up with the way the place is being run or run into the ground as they see it and are looking at moving as soon as their contracts are up. A number have gone already.
Just wondering if anyone else has had experiences like this at liverpool or any other marinas? I certainly haven't, unique to me!

 

[ross84]

They also recently raised the price quite significantly. Most people I speak to have nothing much good to say about the place. I viewed the facilities before Covid19 hit. They were OK but nothing fancy. No idea about the realities of living there long-term. A few people do, but most seem to be on narrowboats?

 

[dankilb]

I'm trying to break the habit of just lurking on these forums - and I run a business ‘on the water’ in the Liverpool docks and have seen the changes over the years - so here goes...:

Basically both posts are accurate! The narrow boats are taking over - now almost half of Coburg Dock, up from less than half a dozen a year or two ago (I suspect they negotiate more favourable rates than for yachts/mobos, although this isn’t advertised). We buy fuel from the garage on the main road opposite - or from Asda if we’re feeling tight!

Apparently the problem is the terms which Canal & River Trust impose on the marina as their ‘tenants’. They drive a very hard bargain and expect a profit from the Docks (presumably and understandably to cross subsidise miles of dilapidated canals that generate no revenue). They also control the lock of course.

On the other hand, where else are you going to go??! Our 12.5m yacht is destined for the Marina once off the hard in N Wales. It’ll cost us a fair whack for our LOA, but less than most city centre marinas (and, what, half the south coast?!). Then there’s the shelter it provides compared to, say (coughs!), Holyhead. We’ll save on mooring lines and fenders!

We’ll be on our way to better cruising grounds once the on-the-water part of our refit is complete anyway.

It’s undoubtedly ‘unconventional’ and a bit of a hassle (and waiting on the lock while the ebb starts running can be downright terrifying!), but it offers a sheltered city centre location and if you can tolerate the ‘wollyback’ (i.e. non-Scouse!) stag/hen/party groups at the weekend, it can offer serenely quiet, beautiful and of course historic surroundings.

In fact, it’s pretty nice shrouded in light fog/mist this morning!

 

[[3889]]

On the other hand, where else are you going to go??!

Conwy, Deganwy, Y Felinheli, Fleetwood, Glasson Dock, even Preston offers better value.
I live 15 miles from Liverpool marina and wouldn't dream of keeping a boat there. Sailing is very limited with locking only during daylight and 3+knots of tide pushing you up and down the river when you do get out. Very limited day sail destinations, the best being a bikers' pub which requires lying alongside a rough wall for an hour maximum on spring tides.
It's not even handy for the city centre.

 

[Skylark]

I’ve used the marina a few times over the years and gave it serious consideration after being made homeless from Holyhead arising from the 2017 Storm Emma.

The 15 miles from lock to Formby Bar buoy, entrance to the channel, is a big issue. Once committed there’s no turning back. Once at the buoy it’s still miles from anywhere.

I really don’t like sailing in the river +/- 2 either side of HW so day sailing is out of the question.

They have very little hard standing so an annual berth includes, iirc, a maximum of 3 weeks out of the water.

Otherwise, the location (by land) is convenient for me and there are a million nearby attractions within a vibrant city centre.

I chose to move to the Clyde.

 

[Danfarry]

We went for a couple of weeks last summer from North Wales and were really excited about having the boat in the city centre and only twenty minutes from home. We left totally disappointed, it was expensive and tatty. Dog mess was all over the pontoons and the facilities were crumbling. Couldn’t wait to get back to our council run marina on the Menai Strait. I would much rather be at Douglas Boatyard, Preston, Glasson, Fleetwood or Whitehaven.

 

[HissyFit]

It may not be in their remit, but a word with the city council may be useful. After all, the state of the marina leaves a bad impression about Liverpool as a whole. They would probably be keen to have a word in the ear of those in charge.

 

[dankilb]

Agree with everything said about the better marina facilities (and sailing opportunities) offered in N Wales/Lancs - but the city centre location is unrivalled. Shame they can’t make more of it...

I still suspect the root of the issues lie with CRT. They are reluctant to invest and keen to squeeze out all they can (fair enough, I guess). They really aren’t orientated towards the sailing/yachting world either. Come to think of it - the marina filling up with CRT-licensed canal boats constitutes a win-win for them. This was actively planned for with the opening of the Leeds-Liverpool canal link.

Things could get interesting if there is competition in the future. There’s talk of a marina in Nelson Dock as part of the Bramley Moore / Everton stadium redevelopment. There’s deeper water there, so perhaps access could be better?

But how many waterside redevelopment masterplans promise ‘marinas’ or ‘moorings’? ...when in reality you’re lucky to end up with a pontoon for the peddlos (and yes, CRT actually built one for that exact purpose in Salthouse Dock!!!)

 

[Billy300]

Agree with everything said about the better marina facilities (and sailing opportunities) offered in N Wales/Lancs - but the city centre location is unrivalled. Shame they can’t make more of it...

I still suspect the root of the issues lie with CRT. They are reluctant to invest and keen to squeeze out all they can (fair enough, I guess). They really aren’t orientated towards the sailing/yachting world either. Come to think of it - the marina filling up with CRT-licensed canal boats constitutes a win-win for them. This was actively planned for with the opening of the Leeds-Liverpool canal link.

Things could get interesting if there is competition in the future. There’s talk of a marina in Nelson Dock as part of the Bramley Moore / Everton stadium redevelopment. There’s deeper water there, so perhaps access could be better?

But how many waterside redevelopment masterplans promise ‘marinas’ or ‘moorings’? ...when in reality you’re lucky to end up with a pontoon for the peddlos (and yes, CRT actually built one for that exact purpose in Salthouse Dock!!!)

Do the canal and river trust own the marina? I would be surprised if such a large organisation allowed one of their marinas to go down hill to this extent.
I cant see some of the canal boats that where there passing any sort of Safety tests required for the canal system!
There did seem a disproportionate amount of canal boats there, maybe that's all they can attract now with the ridiculous policy of only operating the lock once an hour

 

[dankilb]

Do the canal and river trust own the marina? I would be surprised if such a large organisation allowed one of their marinas to go down hill to this extent.

CRT are essentially the landowner and manager for that entire part of the Dock system (and everything 'watery' in/to do with it). AFAIK they lease the site back to Liverpool Marina. They may well be the freeholder for the marina buildings too.

That is certainly how it works for Liverpool Watersports Centre, which is the other major user/business in the docks - CRT own the building and car park, but LWC (part of a local authority run non-profit) operate the centre on a very long lease.

So that was the point I was making about the limited margins and room for manoeuvre/improvement within which I suspect the Marina operates. Not that this excuses poor day-to-day management, of course.

Add to that, the relationship between the CRT and the Marina may not be so rosy either... The word among the CRT berth holders in the Albert Dock was that there was some dispute or even court case a couple of years back whereby the Marina took CRT to task for essentially under-cutting them (Albert Dock berthing was about half the price of the Marina) while also having them by the short and curlies as their 'landlord'. Apparently the Marina won, the prices went up to match, and thus why so many of the narrowboats and AirBnB boats moved up to the Marina (where they could get the facilities for the same price as 'unserviced' and less quiet/secure/private berths in the Albert Dock).

There did seem a disproportionate amount of canal boats there, maybe that's all they can attract now with the ridiculous policy of only operating the lock once an hour

I don't know anything about the new lock situation I'm afraid - apart from that it too is CRT owned and operated. Although I'm sure the Marina do have some considerable say/weight as basically its sole user.

I'm not saying that the situation is helpless by any means! More that it is just 'unconventional' compared to many other places where - I guess, at least - the marina operator owns or leases the site with fewer restrictions (and more opportunities for sailing afforded by the tides and geography!).

Therefore I think Liverpool will always be a mixed bag of canal boats, windfarm launches, AirBnBs and unofficial liveaboards and - sadly but likely true - fewer and fewer regular/active sailors. Aside, that is, from the racing lot at the Yacht Club who pre-C-19 could still muster an impressive turnout to completely fill the lock (I once counter a dozen yachts in there at one time!) for their weekend turn around the cans.

 

[markspark7]

The marina restaurant has now been taken over by two business men, new decor , new menu , food very good. Proper roast Sunday lunch now on offer.
As for the lock, the reason for the times is purely down to money.
There is talk among the the berth holders of substantial redevelopment of the marina but i'm not holding my breath.
The current owners of the marina view it as merely a car park for boats, it is not Conwys or Pwllhelli (heard that from the horses mouth).
If they could fill it with narrowboats they would do.
There are skint, pure and simple.
The lock gate is due to go out off service next year for planned maintenance, it would not be surprising if the work took way longer than first anticipated due to unforeseen issues ! Conveniently keeping the lock unusable for sometime.

The lock was indeed full yesterday with at least 10 yachts (me being one) trying to get out on the first high tide lockout.

 

[sparesheet]

If the Canal and River Trust honour the lease the Marina would improve

The lease is a land registry document open to the public it says – in part:

1. To operate the demised premises in a proper and safe manner and in accordance with the provisions of the lease

2. To ensure that adequate, levels of security are provided within the Demised Premises to minimise damage to and theft from vehicles and vessels therein

3. To keep waterways clear etc

4. No commercial activity except training, fishing etc without consent (not to be unreasonably refused) excluding residential use.

5. To keep navigational areas at a depth of 4 metres above chart datum

6 A PROHIBITION without consent ( no covenant to give consent) residential use

7. Berthing agreements to be approved including charges.

8. To employ staff sufficient for the proper running of the business.

It is perhaps surprising that the Canal & River Trust a public body, as well as a charity does not take the marinas covenants to heart.

Having divested itself of the bar & restaurant the business no longer needs revenue from boats to subsidise that operation so presumably CRT will help to ensure berthing is cheaper and services are improved.

 

[markspark7]

If the Canal and River Trust honour the lease the Marina would improve

The lease is a land registry document open to the public it says – in part:

1. To operate the demised premises in a proper and safe manner and in accordance with the provisions of the lease

2. To ensure that adequate, levels of security are provided within the Demised Premises to minimise damage to and theft from vehicles and vessels therein

3. To keep waterways clear etc

4. No commercial activity except training, fishing etc without consent (not to be unreasonably refused) excluding residential use.

5. To keep navigational areas at a depth of 4 metres above chart datum

6 A PROHIBITION without consent ( no covenant to give consent) residential use

7. Berthing agreements to be approved including charges.

8. To employ staff sufficient for the proper running of the business.

It is perhaps surprising that the Canal & River Trust a public body, as well as a charity does not take the marinas covenants to heart.

Having divested itself of the bar & restaurant the business no longer needs revenue from boats to subsidise that operation so presumably CRT will help to ensure berthing is cheaper and services are improved.

When you refer to the business needs revenue from the boats ,which business are you referring? The Marina shareholders or the CRT??
Who controls the rights to give permanent berths, the Marina shareholders or the CRT?

Are you saying that the CRT are responsible for policing the Marina shareholders?

 

[sailingcolin]

Has anyone visited liverpool marina recently? Ir a berth holder there?
I visited last week and was very disappointed the way it has gone down hill since my last visit a few years ago.
Lock times are every hour which for us meant a 50 minute wait in the Mersey until the next opening. To do with water levels apparently and the berth holders I spoke to certainly weren't happy with this. There is no staff on duty over weekends and even the friday we arrived required 2 visits to the office to catch a staff member to book in and pay.
They have 3 party boats, which are wide beam canal boats, rented out to stag and hen parties mainly, most weekends apparently, with all the noise and disturbance these would produce.
According to the berth holders I spoke with the electricity on their pontoon was off for 3 weeks a couple of weeks ago and the water had also gone off that week.
Rather bizarrely you can only buy diesel online and have to specify in 20 litre increments how much you require.
The berth holders I spoke with where very fed up with the way the place is being run or run into the ground as they see it and are looking at moving as soon as their contracts are up. A number have gone already.
Just wondering if anyone else has had experiences like this at liverpool or any other marinas? I certainly haven't, unique to me!

It's OK Paul, you'll be selling your boat soon.

 

[markspark7]

[

Has anyone visited liverpool marina recently? Ir a berth holder there? I currently have a boat moored there .


Lock times are every hour which for us meant a 50 minute wait in the Mersey until the next opening. To do with water levels apparently and the berth holders I spoke to certainly weren't happy with this. Lock times are 150 mins either side of HW to clear the sill and the rubbish outside the lock.

The lock takes 30 mins to cycle so when you take into consideration the time it takes to get all the boats in and out 45 mins to 1hr would be about right.
There is no staff on duty over weekends and even the friday we arrived required 2 visits to the office to catch a staff member to book in and pay.
No staff in the office but lock is manned until 10pm every night , tide permitting. Outside of these hours ring and book in advance . At least one lock keeper lives on a boat in the marina.

They have 3 party boats, which are wide beam canal boats, rented out to stag and hen parties mainly, most weekends apparently, with all the noise and disturbance these would produce. During this summer they've mostly been quiet for obvious reasons.

According to the berth holders I spoke with the electricity on their pontoon was off for 3 weeks a couple of weeks ago and the water had also gone off that week.
All electric now working, was a broken cable running full length of main pontoon. Water was off four days due to a broken pipe fitting, no one knew how to isolate the water locally so switched the lot off.



Rather bizarrely you can only buy diesel online and have to specify in 20 litre increments how much you require.
This is to plan fuel refilling, only one staff member running office so they try and book in advance. In reality if you ask nicely you'll get fuel no problem.

The berth holders I spoke with where very fed up with the way the place is being run or run into the ground as they see it and are looking at moving as soon as their contracts are up. A number have gone already.
It is starting to change but one swallow does not make a spring. We watch and wait with baited breath.

Just wondering if anyone else has had experiences like this at Liverpool or any other marinas? I certainly haven't, unique to me!

 

[Billy300]

[

I dont have a boat berthed there, after visiting I certainly wouldn't moor my boat there, beautiful as the city centre and waterfront are

 

[dankilb]

We are planning to bring our boat to Liverpool in the spring so appreciate the additional insight and updates from this thread - although reading them with some trepidation also!

I certainly wouldn't moor my boat there

I entirely see what you mean. But we live a few minutes walk away and aren't expecting to do much sailing (mid refit after years of neglect - not ours, I'd add!).

The lock gate is due to go out off service next year for planned maintenance

This does sound like it could be a potential problem for us, then! IIRC last time they closed the lock it was over the winter, but I think it re-opened about on time. I agree that it isn't looking as good this time. It'd be great if you could update us on here. And hopefully bertholders get a reasonable discount for being locked in.

When you refer to the business needs revenue from the boats ,which business are you referring? The Marina shareholders or the CRT??
Who controls the rights to give permanent berths, the Marina shareholders or the CRT?

Are you saying that the CRT are responsible for policing the Marina shareholders?

My impression from working, albeit more tangentially, with the CRT in this neck of the woods is that they are happy as long as their bills are paid and they aren't getting any complaints/flack from other stakeholders. In this case, I believe they Marina lease the site/business from CRT.

It sounds like the covenant is pretty 'light touch' and the Marina can argue they are sticking to it. Doesn't sound like there is anything in there about encouraging/supporting boating (especially the salty kind!).

The current owners of the marina view it as merely a car park for boats

I'd also argue that this is what most of the inland marinas that CRT oversee actually are! Not to denigrate canal boating (about which I know little), but presumably residential/storage is a big part of it. Not to let the Marina off the hook either, but I remain convinced - sadly - that there isn't really a player in the current setup who has a horse in the sailing/yachting race, so to speak (edit: apart from LYC of course - but they aren't a commercial stakeholder, so much).

Nevertheless, all that being said, if you removed the boats who had locked in through Brunswick that would still leave the marina maybe 1/4 occupied at a push (maybe less). So the lock is still needed, even if just to provide access for the 'parking'.

One question I've always had is whether the canal boats pay the same? At current rates you'd be looking close to £1000 pm for some and surely that isn't economical, seeing as a Mersey view flat nearby might rent for similar. I wonder if they're getting a discount - even for the widebeams? If so, that doesn't seem fair. LOA is LOA after all. ?

 

[Concerto]

One question I've always had is whether the canal boats pay the same? At current rates you'd be looking close to £1000 pm for some and surely that isn't economical, seeing as a Mersey view flat nearby might rent for similar. I wonder if they're getting a discount - even for the widebeams? If so, that doesn't seem fair. LOA is LOA after all. ?

Reading their web site, canal boats are charged less.
Quote | Liverpool Marina

 

[[3889]]

As for the lock, the reason for the times is purely down to money.

Yes, how the marina can relieve customers of their money. Why else would they charge per boat for out of hours operation when there is no operational cost difference whether there is 1 or 6 boats in the lock?


The current owners of the marina view it as merely a car park for boats, it is not Conwys or Pwllhelli (heard that from the horses mouth).
Which is the case with Preston Marina, except Preston charges virtually half the fees of Conwy whilst Liverpool charges virtually the same.

 

[dankilb]

Reading their web site, canal boats are charged less

Ah I'd missed that - for long time they hadn't published a tariff online, strangely.