Liveaboard may be cheaper than renting a flat?

[bpbpbp]

Hi,

I hope you all had a lovely xmas. I’m looking for encouragement in my plan to liveaboard and scrutiny of my financial planning!

I intend to rent out my mortgaged house (I won’t profit from this for some years) as I’ve nearly finished renovating it and rather than rent somewhere myself I would like to try a liveaboard lifestyle on a modest boat, which will be my first boat. I work remotely, I have tools and I’m handy so keen to diy as much as possible.

Friends and family including some folks at my local boat club are saying they think it is a romantic but unrealistic idea especially regarding finances. I know in most cases a boat is not an investment, but renting a room/flat is not either and I think a liveaboard boat is a valid alternative to consider, romanticism and passion aside.

So far my estimations are cheaper than renting a room let alone a flat, so perhaps I’m missing a trick or three!

- Insurance £300pa
- 6 months winter mooring £200pm (UK initially)
- 6 months at anchor eg in the med £0
- Maintenance, haul out fees etc £200pm
- I intend to save £200pm in a savings account for nice to haves (eg watermaker) and for ongoing replacement of items on the following list:

Main engine (and diesel generators): 20 years
Mast and boom: 20-30 years
Standing rigging: 5 years (racing); 10 years (cruising)
Running rigging: 10 years
Deck gear: 20-30 years
Upholstery: 10-15 years (20+ years for foam)
Liferaft: 12 years
Lifejackets: 10 years
Batteries: 4-7 years
Electronics: 8-10 years
Sails: 2-5 years (racing); 10-15 years (quality cruising sails)
Teak decks: 10-15 years (potentially 20+ if never scrubbed)
Canvas work (sail covers, sprayhoods etc): 15-20 years

I’m not looking for a huge boat and great comfort, at least not for some years. I’ve seen an Albin Ballad for sale at £10k well equipped by a liveaboard couple now upgrading to a larger boat. This is the sort of boat I’m planning around.

I haven’t added a breakdown of food or fuel etc as I estimate these to be equal to or lower than my current land-based lifestyle.

Best wishes and a happy new year!
Benjamin

 

[dslittle]

Well I’ll start…
Without going into too much detail at the moment, I will say that we spent 5 years living aboard in a UK Marina much cheaper than it would have cost us to rent.
We were very lucky to be able to buy a relatively expensive yacht which allowed us to live very comfortably but you have already identified a reasonably priced yacht which gets you over the first hurdle.
If you read through this Forum, you will see that living aboard in the UK is getting more difficult. You sound as though you are not geographically restrained so I would suggest considering living abroad. The further South you go, the better the weather gets and the easier the living. You don’t state your sailing experience which will impact upon your initial movements but you have considered going into the Med. It may well be that you buy a yacht in situ it’ll save you any initial sailing drama. Further reading on here will contribute to your knowledge about living abroad post B*****.
Our circumstances are very different to yours but, where we keep our yacht in Brittany, I know for a fact that a British couple live aboard full time. I do not know their expenses but, as an estimation, I can tell you that we are currently paying €3000pa for a 45’ yacht. It is possible to get winter/monthly berths which do become proportionately more expensive but not stupidly. If you go for a sub 10m yacht it’s currently €1800pa. That is for a full YEAR on a pontoon. That includes a lift, min 3 weeks ashore and splash between 1/6 and 30/9 for free. We don’t actually eat out that often as we prefer to eat on board but our living costs are certainly no more than living ashore in the UK.
Maintenance is a length of string thing. The better your original purchase, the less the initial maintenance and it is also proportionate to the amount of sailing that you do. It is also very influenced by how much money you have to spend, many tasks can be done by yourself if you have the time and inclination.
It is a very doable and enjoyable lifestyle. There are a number of others on here with greater experience/knowledge than me and I have no doubt that they will contribute in due course.
Welcome to the Forum and good luck with your future plans...

 

[bpbpbp]

Well I’ll start…
Without going into too much detail at the moment, I will say that we spent 5 years living aboard in a UK Marina much cheaper than it would have cost us to rent.
We were very lucky to be able to buy a relatively expensive yacht which allowed us to live very comfortably but you have already identified a reasonably priced yacht which gets you over the first hurdle.
If you read through this Forum, you will see that living aboard in the UK is getting more difficult. You sound as though you are not geographically restrained so I would suggest considering living abroad. The further South you go, the better the weather gets and the easier the living. You don’t state your sailing experience which will impact upon your initial movements but you have considered going into the Med. It may well be that you buy a yacht in situ it’ll save you any initial sailing drama. Further reading on here will contribute to your knowledge about living abroad post B*****.
Our circumstances are very different to yours but, where we keep our yacht in Brittany, I know for a fact that a British couple live aboard full time. I do not know their expenses but, as an estimation, I can tell you that we are currently paying €3000pa for a 45’ yacht. It is possible to get winter/monthly berths which do become proportionately more expensive but not stupidly. If you go for a sub 10m yacht it’s currently €1800pa. That is for a full YEAR on a pontoon. That includes a lift, min 3 weeks ashore and splash between 1/6 and 30/9 for free. We don’t actually eat out that often as we prefer to eat on board but our living costs are certainly no more than living ashore in the UK.
Maintenance is a length of string thing. The better your original purchase, the less the initial maintenance and it is also proportionate to the amount of sailing that you do. It is also very influenced by how much money you have to spend, many tasks can be done by yourself if you have the time and inclination.
It is a very doable and enjoyable lifestyle. There are a number of others on here with greater experience/knowledge than me and I have no doubt that they will contribute in due course.
Welcome to the Forum and good luck with your future plans...

Thank you! That is very encouraging and Brittany mooring sounds very cheap - I like it there. Presumably I could only live there 90 days out of every 180 having only a UK and Canadian passport. Buying in situ is a neat idea.

 

[dslittle]

Thank you! That is very encouraging and Brittany mooring sounds very cheap - I like it there. Presumably I could only live there 90 days out of every 180 having only a UK and Canadian passport. Buying in situ is a neat idea.

We got Residency last year. I don’t think that it will be as easy in the future but you can get a long stay visa which will give you more than 90 days. I’m afraid that’s another can of worms/something to think about.
If you do decide to go for a French Marina, don’t rely on emails - our experience is that you are far better off actually going to the Marina and speaking to them. You will be told that there is a waiting list and you will be put on it. They are often long but (again our experience) the vacancies seem to come up quite quickly. That being said, I do know of a couple of Marinas who seem to have ‘oversold‘ their berths over the last couple of years and spaces are getting harder to find!!!

 

[Bru]

You will be extremely lucky to find a UK marina mooring where you can live aboard for the winter for £200 a month. In fact, you'll struggle to find one at any price

Before Covid you could have done it quite openly or by staying under the radar depending on location but not now - the Covid lockdown brought the significant presence of unofficial liveaboards in most marinas to the attention of local authorities and now they're giving all the marina operators a serious hard time over planning compliance

Marinas which had a no liveaboard clause in their terms and conditions are now enforcing it and those who didn't are inserting such a clause into their contract on renewal (and with increasingly strict limits on number of consecutive nights on board - our mooring agreement for next year for example restricts us to a maximum of 14 nights!)

This is undoubtedly going to pose problems for cruising liveaboards looking for a winter base in the UK. We can only hope that the situation eases back to a more pragmatic approach in time but don't bet on it happening in the near future

Don't bank on getting lucky on this either. The list of UK marinas kicking out liveaboards and strictly applying contract conditions grows longer with every passing week and now includes most of the major marina groups and a lot of the independents. I fully expect those who haven't yet to do so in the very near future given the nationwide attention of planning enforcement officers

It's a right burger cos it potentially stuffs up our plans to do much the same as you're planning (in our case, cruise spring to autumn and hole up somewhere for the winter). As we're a couple of years at least away from being able to go I'm hoping the situation improves

 

[Ningaloo]

I agree that it costs less to live aboard cruising than be static ashore, especially if renting.
My boat mooring and fuel costs for the summer season are about the same as I might pay for council tax plus other utilities (gas, electric, water, telecoms, TV tax) before even getting into rental or mortgage costs. Boat insurance is probably similar to house and contents insurance. And you can ditch the car for further savings.
But I wouldn't choose to live aboard during winter months in the UK. Unfortunately (assuming you are UK citizen) you no longer have the option to stay somewhere warmer in EU, although you can probably find somewhere like Tunisia outside the EU for the winter.

 

[PlanB]

I did live aboard in the UK on an ad hoc basis some years ago but in a well ventilated and heated, largeish motor cruiser. Even then, when the weather was very bad it was quite testing, and the existence of a very well heated shower block was a great advantage.
The Costa del Sol proved to be a much more pleasant experience.
However, as others have said, living aboard both in the UK and the EU has recently become much more difficult for various reasons.
I'm not sure of the relevance of estimating years of life for various elements - in my experience the whole expense thing is totally random, and more than you expect!
If you are working remotely, presumably you need reliable wifi - if you're looking at being at anchor for significant period you'll need to factor in data.
You also need to have a permanent address in the UK for a number of things, eg bank and other official/quasi official organisation.. The one thing you can't do if trying to live aboard in the UK unofficially is use the marina as your permanent address.
And thoughts on renting out your house - don't forget that you will have to get permission from your mortgage lender to rent out your house and they will probably add at least 1% to your interest rate. You' will have to pay tax on your rental income (less expenses) and if you are not local to your house you'll need to pay a managing agent (typically 10-20% of the rent). Also repairs and renewals - tenants can be harder on your place than you would be. And allow for fallow periods.
Having said all that, I lived aboard for nearly 15 years, mostly in Spain, and it was a great life.

 

[bpbpbp]

You will be extremely lucky to find a UK marina mooring where you can live aboard for the winter for £200 a month. In fact, you'll struggle to find one at any price

Before Covid you could have done it quite openly or by staying under the radar depending on location but not now - the Covid lockdown brought the significant presence of unofficial liveaboards in most marinas to the attention of local authorities and now they're giving all the marina operators a serious hard time over planning compliance

Marinas which had a no liveaboard clause in their terms and conditions are now enforcing it and those who didn't are inserting such a clause into their contract on renewal (and with increasingly strict limits on number of consecutive nights on board - our mooring agreement for next year for example restricts us to a maximum of 14 nights!)

This is undoubtedly going to pose problems for cruising liveaboards looking for a winter base in the UK. We can only hope that the situation eases back to a more pragmatic approach in time but don't bet on it happening in the near future

Don't bank on getting lucky on this either. The list of UK marinas kicking out liveaboards and strictly applying contract conditions grows longer with every passing week and now includes most of the major marina groups and a lot of the independents. I fully expect those who haven't yet to do so in the very near future given the nationwide attention of planning enforcement officers

It's a right burger cos it potentially stuffs up our plans to do much the same as you're planning (in our case, cruise spring to autumn and hole up somewhere for the winter). As we're a couple of years at least away from being able to go I'm hoping the situation improves

Good point. Some are still ok though, Milford Haven Marina website encourages liveaboards for example. But yes, I will have to consider mooring elsewhere, and hoping for a 6 month visa.

 

[bpbpbp]

We got Residency last year. I don’t think that it will be as easy in the future but you can get a long stay visa which will give you more than 90 days. I’m afraid that’s another can of worms/something to think about.
If you do decide to go for a French Marina, don’t rely on emails - our experience is that you are far better off actually going to the Marina and speaking to them. You will be told that there is a waiting list and you will be put on it. They are often long but (again our experience) the vacancies seem to come up quite quickly. That being said, I do know of a couple of Marinas who seem to have ‘oversold‘ their berths over the last couple of years and spaces are getting harder to find!!!

Ok great info thanks!

 

[bpbpbp]

I did live aboard in the UK on an ad hoc basis some years ago but in a well ventilated and heated, largeish motor cruiser. Even then, when the weather was very bad it was quite testing, and the existence of a very well heated shower block was a great advantage.
The Costa del Sol proved to be a much more pleasant experience.
However, as others have said, living aboard both in the UK and the EU has recently become much more difficult for various reasons.
I'm not sure of the relevance of estimating years of life for various elements - in my experience the whole expense thing is totally random, and more than you expect!
If you are working remotely, presumably you need reliable wifi - if you're looking at being at anchor for significant period you'll need to factor in data.
You also need to have a permanent address in the UK for a number of things, eg bank and other official/quasi official organisation.. The one thing you can't do if trying to live aboard in the UK unofficially is use the marina as your permanent address.
And thoughts on renting out your house - don't forget that you will have to get permission from your mortgage lender to rent out your house and they will probably add at least 1% to your interest rate. You' will have to pay tax on your rental income (less expenses) and if you are not local to your house you'll need to pay a managing agent (typically 10-20% of the rent). Also repairs and renewals - tenants can be harder on your place than you would be. And allow for fallow periods.
Having said all that, I lived aboard for nearly 15 years, mostly in Spain, and it was a great life.

That is a very very good point, the costs of being a landlord. Ouch.

 

[Bru]

Good point. Some are still ok though, Milford Haven Marina website encourages liveaboards for example. But yes, I will have to consider mooring elsewhere, and hoping for a 6 month visa.

Milford must have Planning Permission for residential berths as otherwise they wouldn't be so open about it. Fairly unusual and must be virtually unique in not charging a significant premium for residential berths.

I have made a note!!!

 

[Tranona]

Sorry to put a damper on your plans. Yes, your estimate of the costs is unrealistic, your optimistic view of the ability to live aboard and travel around is at odds with the new political reality and you do not seem to have considered whether you like sailing and are able to live and work in such a confined space as a small 30' boat.

Dealing with the last point first. Experiment by clearing your lounge and scribe out on the floor the plan of the cabin of the Albin, then lower the ceiling to 6', build a partition around the space and populate it with the bunks, loo, table, galley, chart table and all your stores, clothes and work gear. Try living in the space and then imagine what it might be like in the middle of the UK winter or in 35 degrees in summer in the Med. Living on a small boat is NOT a substitute for living ashore in a house - it is an alternative and you start from whether you like the idea (or preferably have experience of) sailing on a small boat and spending time on board. Tolerable for a week or two in essentially holiday "camping" mode, but once you start to add what is necessary to live for long periods and work you will find severe constraints. You might get away with it tied up in a quiet marina with easy access to shoreside facilities, at least for the summer months, but by November the novelty will have worn off and the reality of battling with the elements - cold, damp, ice, lack of social contact, getting to the toilet block for your daily needs etc start to get you down. On top of all this you are expecting to be able to keep a 40 year old boat that was only ever intended for weekend and holiday sailing in a state where it can be sailed from one port or even one country to another with a tiny budget.

Although people do live on boats this size, few do it for any length of time. Reasons vary, and are often involuntary. Common is those who do it for short periods because it suits as I did for a year (in an even smaller boat), week time only because I had a job in a boatyard 100 miles from home. Partly afloat but mostly on shore hooked up to electricity. Tolerable for short periods because no need for things like washing and all the other domestic tasks, nor travel as work was just outside. Others get into it as a break for an adventure - early retirement common, yet others because they have fallen on hard times - divorce, redundancy, health problems. A few do it in a spartan way when young as a way of getting going on a big adventure, Very, very few do it as a conscious decision to give up a comfortable life ashore in the vain hope of "saving" money while banking the capital gains on the equity in their house.

As has already been explained the "system" is increasingly against alternative lifestyles using boats and mobility and this will only get more difficult. While sailing south to the sun used to be reasonably possible, many soon found out how difficult it is to prepare and sail your own boat long distances as you can see from the long list of abandoned boats stretching from the Atlantic coast of France all the way into the Med, never mind the collection of boats in the back of UK boatyards that never even got past Falmouth! Do not underestimate the amount of time and money required to refit and prepare even a modest boat like a Ballad for serious passage making. I am doing a similar thing now with a similar size boat, just for coastal cruising and my budget is 3 times yours of which less than half was the purchase price of a fully functioning boat.

If you like the idea of sailing your own boat, buy one and go sailing to find out if you really like it. Then start spending a week or two at a time on it with a view to perhaps after a year or two spending a whole UK summer aboard sailing round the coast before laying up for winter. You may well find this pattern very agreeable, but of course this assumes keeping your home ashore. This is much what we did with our early retirement project, albeit with a boat in the Med, starting with holidays while working and gradually spending longer periods on board. As it happened circumstances changed and we were not able to get to the next stage of spending half the year living on board and cruising around.. No reason though as a younger person with an independent means of earning an income this pattern should not be achievable.

 

[temptress]

Yes it can be done. Don't underestimate the difficultly...where you are based controls your options and costs. If in the UK remote places are often cheap to live in but hen there is n .work

Outside the UK there are work permits to get or risk imprionsionment and the locals often resent someone breezing in undercurting them...you will need specific skills not available locally.

Still it's doable and there are many doing just that.

 

[bpbpbp]

Yes it can be done. Don't underestimate the difficultly...where you are based controls your options and costs. If in the UK remote places are often cheap to live in but hen there is n .work

Outside the UK there are work permits to get or risk imprionsionment and the locals often resent someone breezing in undercurting them...you will need specific skills not available locally.

Still it's doable and there are many doing just that.

I have a job and work remotely.

 

[Kelpie]

I have a job and work remotely.

This is a big help, and you can ignore a lot of the concerns raised. Nobody is going to come hassling you about a work visa, and you won't be stuck in a daily grind of having to make yourself look presentable and get off the boat to travel somewhere.

If you need internet afloat, that's no longer such a big problem. e g. where I'm based (Algarve) it's unlimited data for €1/day on a 15 day PAYG basis.

Your suggested costs for a UK berth are on the low side but totally achievable in the right places (hint- not the south coast).

Personally I would get fed up sailing between UK and Med every year. If you are not fortunate enough to have a way of staying in Schengen, you can explore the various flavours of Schengen shuffle, e.g. go to Turkey for three months.

 

[bpbpbp]

This is a big help, and you can ignore a lot of the concerns raised. Nobody is going to come hassling you about a work visa, and you won't be stuck in a daily grind of having to make yourself look presentable and get off the boat to travel somewhere.

If you need internet afloat, that's no longer such a big problem. e g. where I'm based (Algarve) it's unlimited data for €1/day on a 15 day PAYG basis.

Your suggested costs for a UK berth are on the low side but totally achievable in the right places (hint- not the south coast).

Personally I would get fed up sailing between UK and Med every year. If you are not fortunate enough to have a way of staying in Schengen, you can explore the various flavours of Schengen shuffle, e.g. go to Turkey for three months.

Thanks especially for the data costs in PT that’s helpful for planning. My first few paragraphs say that I work remotely but it’s not totally clear I guess, and a long post! Southampton has a place I found for £180pm so there are south coast options. Shengen shuffle sounds great to me for a while. It’s the antidote to sofa and desk I’m seeking as well as building on my sailing experience. I can see how it may get annoying eventually though.

 

[ryanroberts]

I have lived aboard for about 14 years now in the UK, most of that as a continuous cruiser on inland water. You have to be pretty bloody minded to persist with it, and ideally not tied to a single place for work. Like others here I will point out the increasing difficulty of living aboard 'legitimately'. My contract also now limits days per month, so am not compliant despite my long periods cruising. Hopefully things settle down as we move out of pandemic restriction.

Nothing lost out by trying it though, you can always sell the boat if you don't like it.

 

[bpbpbp]

I have lived aboard for about 14 years now in the UK, most of that as a continuous cruiser on inland water. You have to be pretty bloody minded to persist with it, and ideally not tied to a single place for work. Like others here I will point out the increasing difficulty of living aboard 'legitimately'. My contract also now limits days per month, so am not compliant despite my long periods cruising. Hopefully things settle down as we move out of pandemic restriction.

Nothing lost out by trying it though, you can always sell the boat if you don't like it.

I just read an interesting article about a chap living in a similar fashion on the Norfolk Broads. Inspiring despite the challenges. I've been nomadic most of my life in some way or other, can't shake it off. My childhood was too.

 

[syvictoria]

I just read an interesting article about a chap living in a similar fashion on the Norfolk Broads. Inspiring despite the challenges. I've been nomadic most of my life in some way or other, can't shake it off. My childhood was too.

Legitimately living aboard on the Norfolk Broads is very difficult. There are very few official moorings, and nothing akin to a continuous cruising licence.

 

[bpbpbp]

Doh! I guess the solution is to keep moving about, which would satisfy my wanderlust.