Liveaboard in Europe

[siolaakis]

It is not difficult to find info about living aboard in USA. I just wonder if there is a source of information regarding living aboard in Europe. Anyone out there who knows,did it or better still, does it?
I would like to get general idea where the good and cheep places are.What regulations one should be aware of.It would be good to get some prise info too.Since I hope to work while staying for a while it should not be in too remote areas.( Work permit is not a question since I am European.) Thanks a lot for all the information


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[BrendanS]

This site will give you all the basic information you need, just read through some of the many posts on the subject, then post specific requests for information

<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

 

[ashley]

I'm basing this on my experience in France where i've been for 12 months
Living is easy and cheap, be prepared for much paperwork and red tape. be patient, it's worth it.
If you're sailing over, bring as many spares/materials you can as hardware is one thing that will really cost you over here.

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[ashley]

Where are you coming from and where are you going to?

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[siolaakis]

I live at the moment in Germany, but the plan is to cruise / work my way all around Europe( england included) all the way to Greece so any info about any of the countries will be very welcome.
Thanks

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[pragmatist]

It would probably be helpful if you filled in your profile so people know what kind of work you do (which may dictate where you need to put the boat), what kind and length of boat.

For example, if you want to work on the South Coast of England it is mostly very very expensive. But if you could work further west e.g. Falmouth or Dartmouth then it can be much cheaper. Similarly there are cheap places with access to London by train but they tend to be drying.

There is a recent post on this forum where I enquired about berthing in the Mediterranean and had a long and helpful set of replies, especially from MedMan who also has a web site. Croatia sounds great ! Probably got better weather than the UK - as I look out of the window at the driving rain !

<hr width=100% size=1>a pragmatist is an optimist with a boat in the UK - but serious about not being in the UK !

 

[ashley]

If you're going to England, then you'll probably, like most tourists/workers, go straight to London, 'cos that typifies England apparently, and you'll not want to go to the south coast unless you're minted already.
Spend time pondering why you can moor in the heart of a capital city for a third of the prices of the south coast.
If you're lucky get a mooring right in the heart of London for relatively low money, maybe you'll have to pay £100-300 per month depending on how close you get and obviously you're size, and that IS cheap compared to the rent i used to pay on bricks and mortar.

Working in towards london from the thames estuary, here's a few I've been in contact with and a travelling time to Central London;
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.gallionspointmarina.co.uk/>Galleons Point, 30 mins tube</A>
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.waterwaynetwork.com/dimensions.asp?type=mooringswaterscape&mooringtype=all&waterway=26#result>Limehouse basin and others, 20 mins tube</A>
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.skdocks.co.uk/>St Katherines Dock, 5 mins walk</A>

Also, literally "stepping off the boat" in London, you can go to Tottenham court road and sign on to one of probably twenty temporaries agencies and have a job lined up before youve' even showered.

Hands up who loves the EC

 

[Sea Devil]

Add to your list of London inexpensive marinas South Dock - 5 minutes from Tube and Tesco. Great place full of live aboards and people preparing to set sail - I was there to sell one boat and buy another and get it ready to voyage and had a wonderful time.
Trying to find work as you sail normally means finding jobs in the sailing industry and working (unless you are a trained mechanic/engineer) for fairly low wages at a manual leval - More highly paid work takes longer to find and the employers expect some degree of intention to retain the job for longer periods and if you do that you don't sail. Work in the boating/yachting industry can be more seasonal and tempory.
I love the EC - I have really enjoyed the right to work - live in any EU country - love the fact I have fewer plastic bags of different currencies - The standardisation does also have advantages.
regards
Michael

<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing

 

[paikea]

I am glad to see this thread. Thank you for it.
I am equally planning to purchase a sailboat and liveaboard. I have other plans too sailing wise, but I start with this. I want to also find places/marinas where the internet on a sailboat wouldn't be an issues with the right equipment. My work is not location bound, but internet dependent.
It was easy to find info about US in this regard because my work takes me a lot to the US.
However, many Americans ended up asking me why would I want to do this in the US when I have the beautiful Med close by. So now I look into both.
Although I travel a lot as it is, my so called "official" home is Belgium.
In the end buying a boat, and finding a marina doesn't seem the challenge. My problem is how does one organize the logistics, considering right now I am very much in the dark with this area and market and laws and processes:
1. Buy a boat somewhere, sail it to Belgium or not - register it in Belgium? refit it in Belgium or somewhere else? then when ready sail it away and hop from marinas to marinas when and how I decide?
2. Insure the boat in Belgium? or does the insurance is country marina linked and dependent?
3. What other paper work I am missing?
4. If one isn't a resident of UK , or France, or Spain, can one register a boat there? insure a boat there?
To name few of my questions.

I guess you get the picture.
Well, I will spend months now in the UK in Southampton to build on RYA certifications and sailing experience and I shall try to figure these out talking to people in marinas there. But any other feedback from here is appreciated.

 

[Monique]

Hello Nomad,

As an EU citizen, you can live anywhere in EU. However, the taxation is not the same everywhere.

1. Buy it anywhere but create a company in the CI's and register the boat there. Ensure VAT is paid and you have the VAT receipt.
2. I insure my boat in France because the broker is very involved with RTW sailors.
3. No idea.
4. Never admit to a residency in Spain or France. Luxembourg perhaps.

Welcome to the mad house

 

[Sybarite]

Hello Nomad,

As an EU citizen, you can live anywhere in EU. However, the taxation is not the same everywhere.

1. Buy it anywhere but create a company in the CI's and register the boat there. Ensure VAT is paid and you have the VAT receipt.
2. I insure my boat in France because the broker is very involved with RTW sailors.
3. No idea.
4. Never admit to a residency in Spain or France. Luxembourg perhaps.

Welcome to the mad house

Not sure I understand your recommendations.

Are you suggesting that the CI company should own the boat or that Nomad should exercise his professional activity out of a CI company?

In the former case it would imply that he would use his boat to earn income. Otherwise what is the point? If the activity is in France, the billings would have to incur VAT and the revenue from this activity would have to be declared to the tax authorities. The same thing applies for any other professional activity carried out when based in France. People often give advice to create an offshore company so as not to incur a French tax liability and some may in fact escape it - in the short term. However you have to know that the beneficiaries of professional services have to provide a detailed list including addresses of service providers as part of their annual tax return.

To be in compliance you would have to nominate (and pay) a tax agent established in France. He is then responsible for ensuring that all tax is accounted for as if you were a French based company. You may also be sure that the tax authorities will go through the transactions with a fine-tooth comb for any billings coming from a known tax haven.

Also, residence is a question of fact based on the time spent in the country. Again you may get away with it, but if it results in not declaring your taxes and you are found out you do not get the benefit of an honest mistake and the penalties are severe. Do not take the tax authorities lightly; they have seen all this sort of thing before.

 

[Tranona]

I am glad to see this thread. Thank you for it.
I am equally planning to purchase a sailboat and liveaboard. I have other plans too sailing wise, but I start with this. I want to also find places/marinas where the internet on a sailboat wouldn't be an issues with the right equipment. My work is not location bound, but internet dependent.
It was easy to find info about US in this regard because my work takes me a lot to the US.
However, many Americans ended up asking me why would I want to do this in the US when I have the beautiful Med close by. So now I look into both.
Although I travel a lot as it is, my so called "official" home is Belgium.
In the end buying a boat, and finding a marina doesn't seem the challenge. My problem is how does one organize the logistics, considering right now I am very much in the dark with this area and market and laws and processes:
1. Buy a boat somewhere, sail it to Belgium or not - register it in Belgium? refit it in Belgium or somewhere else? then when ready sail it away and hop from marinas to marinas when and how I decide?
2. Insure the boat in Belgium? or does the insurance is country marina linked and dependent?
3. What other paper work I am missing?
4. If one isn't a resident of UK , or France, or Spain, can one register a boat there? insure a boat there?
To name few of my questions.

I guess you get the picture.
Well, I will spend months now in the UK in Southampton to build on RYA certifications and sailing experience and I shall try to figure these out talking to people in marinas there. But any other feedback from here is appreciated.

There are no simple answers to your questions. If you are an EU citizen you are free to travel around and work anywhere in the EU. However, it makes sense to try and be resident in one state and be a visitor in others. In theory you become potentially resident for tax purposes if you stay more than 6 months in one state, but this rule is difficult to enforce except in some states, particularly Spain. It does not become an issue if you keep moving.

Most states have either citizen or resident constraints on registering a boat, but Belgium is one of the easiest countries. Registration is not affected by EU law, but by international conventions and Belgian registration is internationally accepted. However, registering in a non EU state (such as CI), even if you are eligible, is not a good idea as some states such as Greece may treat you as non EU and restrict your boat's movements.

Where you buy your boat is largely irrelevant from a paperwork point of view provided it has proof of VAT payment and you get good title documents. It does not need to physically be in the state where you register. You may find better value boats, particularly in terms of equipment for living in hotter climates in the Med rather than buying a boat in northern Europe, but you really need to draw up a list of requirements and then see what is available. Most insurers will insure a boat for use across the EU, but you may well find that some will only provide insurance for residents of the state they operate in.

There are many other practical reasons for maintaining official residence in one state, for example to get an EHIC for healthcare cover, getting social security rights, driving licence, billing address for bank and credit cards etc. You can still run your business and private affairs largely on line as you travel, but not having a permanent address can be restrictive when dealing with some businesses and activities.

 

[paikea]

Thank you all, these are fairly different and yet valuable data that I will consider. I appreciate this.
Of course there are all sort of ways of doing this, I am just looking for straight forward uncomplicated set ups. If that's even remotely possible.
The US seemed simple in this regard, one country, same thing all around.
But when you end up with the EU and so many countries, and each country with its laws and rules, I then ending up hopping from place to place, I started to wonder how complex or simple still this is.

Its interesting Tranona when you say Belgium is the easiest. I shall dig deeper. This country is not really a Sailing arena.
I just want to do everything by the book, correctly, then do my things freely and without worries.

Sybarite, of course I don't intend to do anything offshore. As I said, simplicity and straight forward process, for set up and maintenance.

 

[DownWest]

Sounds like the OP has no real idea about being on a boat, but thinks it might be a solution to tax problems. Qute a lot of people do hide under the the tax radar on boats. But if earning decent amounts, they tend to show up and be noticed.
Client of mine got out of UK to Monaco. Very careful to be correct, as he had serious money. Then left Monaco to be in various countries short term, to avoid being tax resident, i.e. less than 1/3 of a year in each. Problem was, his other half got homesick and missed the kids.

Missed the last post.
Belgium has an easy registration process, used by French and others to avoid onerous local régulations. Makes sense for larger boats. Google Pavillion Belge

 

[paikea]

Thank you DownWest.
You are correct, I never lived on a boat. Its my intent to at least try to. I guess everyone starts somewhere. Some fall in love with living on a boat, some give up after some time. I am all very much aware of that.

Living on a boat for me has nothing at all to do with taxes. Not in the least. Maybe I have enough investments now to not even need to work.

My questions are simply related to logistics and organizing the paperwork of buying, registering and sorting the boat insurance, and area which I am not familiar with. And how hopping from country to country might or might not influence any of these.
I try to ask questions and not just act blindly.

 

[DownWest]

Thank you DownWest.
You are correct, I never lived on a boat. Its my intent to at least try to. I guess everyone starts somewhere. Some fall in love with living on a boat, some give up after some time. I am all very much aware of that.

Living on a boat for me has nothing at all to do with taxes. Not in the least. Maybe I have enough investments now to not even need to work.

My questions are simply related to logistics and organizing the paperwork of buying, registering and sorting the boat insurance, and area which I am not familiar with. And how hopping from country to country might or might not influence any of these.
I try to ask questions and not just act blindly.

Sorry to be negative. Best questions are those that are not asked normally.
People who live on boats usually have a bit of previous. Bit like a very small caravan and one needs to get rid of much of the gear that many think they need.
As for the paper work, not very difficult. once you have the boat registered in a EU state (not the CIs). Tax situation is a question of residence in which country you spend more than 180days in.

 

[paikea]

No worries DownWest.
Thank you for the feedback.
I understand I don't have experience in living on a sailboat, but equally I am adult enough (and probably with experience in other areas) to understand at least certain major implications that come with it, the pro and cons, I am not stepping into this lightly, nor am I expecting to "live the dream" as they call it. Even *that* is not my goal with all these.
And like anything else in life, this will come with advantages and disadvantages either way. But then, no matter what roads we take in life they always come with advantages and disadvantages, we just need to weight them and decide what fits best with us.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Paikea,

You're asking big questions! My site, http://www.jimbsail.info/ answers some of them. There's quite a lot of information about paperwork and regulations under the "Going Foreign" tab, and the various cruising areas around Europe are compared with each other to help with location questions.

All in all, it's a lot of reading . . . and it does assume you have some knowledge of what it's like to live on board and sail from place to place for a week or so.