Liquid Vortex trial starts

[jimi]

You may find court have been told some different "facts", not sure of all details but I understand there was a full watch of 3 on deck when wave hit and two were helping Skipper with rigging for tow after helmsman taken below. First and Second two rigged by crew!

In that case the RNLI are liars.
from
http://www.dungenesslifeboat.org.uk...ness-silver-medal-rescue-full-rescue-scenario

Upon arrival at the scene
"Due to injury and seasickness, the skipper was now the only person onboard the yacht who was in a fit state to work with the lifeboat crew during the rescue. Two crew were seated in the cockpit with their lifejackets inflated and their safety lines clipped on, but were severely seasick. The remaining four onboard were below decks."

Later after getting a RNLI man on board

"Meanwhile, aboard the yacht, crew member Clark immediately assessed the two men in the cockpit and acknowledged the skipper. He went down into the saloon and found a male casualty who was responsive but in pain with a blood stained face. Next he checked the two aft cabins. In each was a female casualty; one had knocked her head, but was responsive and severely seasick. The second was severely seasick and needed reassurance. Crew member Clark checked the forward cabin and found a third female casualty who was also severely seasick. He knew this was not going to be a normal shout."

 

[Old Dog]

I did my Coastal Skipper course on the Solent with force 8 & occasional 9 inside the Island.

I'm not clear what they have done to be prosecuted for.

I don't understand how they can be charged with not notifying the coastguard. If everyone who sailed on the Solent notified them they would need more coastguards.

Hundreds of people are rescued every year by the RNLI - how many others have been prosecuted? I've never heard of any. If the government makes it an offense to need a rescue then I think they are going to kill a lot of people.

Huge difference between F8/9 in Solent and same in open water. I have done training runs under storm sails in F10 in Solent and once this summer in F9 from Weymouth to Poole. F10 in Solent no problem, F9 of Anvil was "interesting", glad it was in a "big boat"!

 

[Old Dog]

Fact, or your assumption? Do you work for MAIB? Who did the investigation that led to the prosecution? With respect, you seem very assertive and sure of yourself, while some of what you say appears to contradict much of what has been reported here, including the RNLI press release. There have been too many speculators on this forum in my view. Why not wait for the outcome of the trial?

Hope you have read other posts and understand I am not speculating. Think you will find a number of assumptions challenged ref this incident. As I understand it the guy on the helm who was injured (a CNN reporter apparently) has commented in court from the witness stand on "irresponsible and grossly exaggerated" reporting resulting from statements by one of the crew.

By the way if you have ever been involved with a case you will know "spin" and how a Barrister can twist words counts for as much as the truth.

 

[[70521]]

By the way if you have ever been involved with a case you will know "spin" and how a Barrister can twist words counts for as much as the truth.

The Jury I sat on spotted the spin in about 8 nano-seconds and the word twisting in about 16 nano-seconds (we were being slow that day). I rest my case Your Honour.

 

[Old Dog]

Ah, the rule of six. I know somebody who knows the skipper.

I know somebody, who knows somebody who knows Billy Connolly (and I went to school with three Members of Parliament).

I am not sure if your postings have any more credibility that any other of our esteemed posters on the forum?

Its a bit closer association that that, heard a lot first hand soon after event, have not commented before because of case pending, but all done now, jury out on Monday I understand.

 

[Old Dog]

The Jury I sat on spotted the spin in about 8 nano-seconds and the word twisting in about 16 nano-seconds (we were being slow that day). I rest my case Your Honour.

They were better than some I was with then!!

 

[[70521]]

Its a bit closer association that that, heard a lot first hand soon after event, have not commented before because of case pending, but all done now, jury out on Monday I understand.

I will be interested when you disclose who you really are! (Actually, I am a lot closer to Billy Connolly, but it is Scotland and we all know each other; even I get surprised when my mum says I know him/her when people pop up on the news).

 

[[70521]]

They were better than some I was with then!!

I could not possibly comment, apart from I was discussed that we had to pay for our own coffee, but I am a Scot.

 

[Old Dog]

In that case the RNLI are liars.
from
http://www.dungenesslifeboat.org.uk...ness-silver-medal-rescue-full-rescue-scenario

Upon arrival at the scene
"Due to injury and seasickness, the skipper was now the only person onboard the yacht who was in a fit state to work with the lifeboat crew during the rescue. Two crew were seated in the cockpit with their lifejackets inflated and their safety lines clipped on, but were severely seasick. The remaining four onboard were below decks."

Later after getting a RNLI man on board

"Meanwhile, aboard the yacht, crew member Clark immediately assessed the two men in the cockpit and acknowledged the skipper. He went down into the saloon and found a male casualty who was responsive but in pain with a blood stained face. Next he checked the two aft cabins. In each was a female casualty; one had knocked her head, but was responsive and severely seasick. The second was severely seasick and needed reassurance. Crew member Clark checked the forward cabin and found a third female casualty who was also severely seasick. He knew this was not going to be a normal shout."

So an RNLI Press Officer can not make mistakes? One of their reports said the engine had failed, another now says something about Skipper turning it back on? Think court have been told it never failed? One RNLI report says their guy (who incidently I think deserved his galantry award) was on the helm for two hours but another says he took over for a few mins on entrance to Ramsgate? I am not going to say anything anbout RNLI crews but a "Press Officer" is a Press Officer, would not trust any from any organisaation to get facts right.

 

[jimi]

So you are saying that the RNLI report linked to was substantially wrong and in effect slandered CS. Are you going to sue?

 

[Old Dog]

I will be interested when you disclose who you really are! (Actually, I am a lot closer to Billy Connolly, but it is Scotland and we all know each other; even I get surprised when my mum says I know him/her when people pop up on the news).

You may have to wait a while then. I have one good friend in common and several other aquaintances (is that spelling right?). The world of instructors in the Solent is quite small, I have and do work for same people.

 

[Old Dog]

So you are saying that the RNLI report linked to was substantially wrong and in effect slandered CS. Are you going to sue?

Your asking wrong person. I also think the report would have to accuse him of something untrue directly? Any solicitors out there?

This whole case has all sorts of implications for all of us who work in industry so you will find a few of us have followed it quite closely. Knowing the individual in question adds an edge to that. He knowes he got it wrong, he told the RYA YMQP that but people that know him and I am including Ocean Examiners I know who know him think court is over the top. I do not think some of comments made are fair so I will defend him.

I will discuss what I know and have been told, if I speculate I will make it clear its me doing that but if you want to have a converstation please stay polite.

 

[jimi]

Your asking wrong person!

Are you sure? Every single one of your posts relates to Liquid Vortex and this incident .. with much in the way of so called what CS might have done or based his actions on etc etc etc I guess I am very wrong but I am sure you will forgive me some justified suspicion!

 

[Old Dog]

Are you sure? Every single one of your posts relates to Liquid Vortex and this incident .. with much in the way of so called what CS might have done or based his actions on etc etc etc I guess I am very wrong but I am sure you will forgive me some justified suspicion!

I have in the past looked at a number of discussions on this site. I will be honest in that I think a lot if not most of what is said is ill informed speculation by people who do not have a clue (By the way that is not meant as any kind of pesonal comment). What prompted me to comment on this was the fact that I did know some of the truth and the individual in question, maybe I should not have but I do not like to see someone who is well liked and respected attacked in the way he has been. As I do not even do "social media" in any form this is a little out of my comfort zone and I do spend considerable periods without internet access so not an "online person". As a final comment I can understand you suspicion but it is wrong.

 

[jimi]

I have in the past looked at a number of discussions on this site. I will be honest in that I think a lot if not most of what is said is ill informed speculation by people who do not have a clue (By the way that is not meant as any kind of pesonal comment). What prompted me to comment on this was the fact that I did know some of the truth and the individual in question, maybe I should not have but I do not like to see someone who is well liked and respected attacked in the way he has been. As I do not even do "social media" in any form this is a little out of my comfort zone and I do spend considerable periods without internet access so not an "online person". As a final comment I can understand you suspicion but it is wrong.

If that's the case I respect your loyalty and intentions. However there seems to be considerable disparity between what you are hinting at and the RNLI report. If the RNLI report is incorrect and proved to be so then I hope that report will be thoroughly investigated. Many people, including me, would wish the incident report to be factual and reliable. If it is not, but has been given a Sunlike gloss then I sincerely hope that situation is resolved PDQ.

 

[jimi]

I will discuss what I know and have been told, if I speculate I will make it clear its me doing that but if you want to have a converstation please stay polite.

In, addition, can you please indicate in what way I have been impolite?

You seem to be saying that CS got it wrong and knows he did, but that ending up in court was a bit over the top. I rather suspect that if you left it at that you'd get a lot of sympathy here (including me). We all make mistakes.

I don't like the tactic of saying that the RNLI reports are substantially rubbish (rather than containing the odd erroneous detail). If that is untrue then it is a shameful tactic.
These guys went out at their own risk when called on, to perform the rescue.

But, the Sea school manager is probably a different kettle of fish, with a bit of previous he was bound to get the book thrown at him next time if he had'nt followed the previous recommendations. CS probably just chose the wrong employer this time.

 

[Old Dog]

If that's the case I respect your loyalty and intentions. However there seems to be considerable disparity between what you are hinting at and the RNLI report. If the RNLI report is incorrect and proved to be so then I hope that report will be thoroughly investigated. Many people, including me, would wish the incident report to be factual and reliable. If it is not, but has been given a Sunlike gloss then I sincerely hope that situation is resolved PDQ.

I am not hinting at anything, any "incident" will be viewed diferently by all involved and in a fast moving stressfull incident (my background in previous life includes some) facts will get confused. I have read a lot of the stuff about this and there are a whole raft of minor inconsitancies. They will not be there because people are telling lies just because of confusion. On top of that you get a "Press Officer" involved who may not understand all that is being said and things just go from bad to worse. What your calling an RNLI report is really just a press release I think?

There are a number of comments in previous posts about poor press reporting, why should an RNLI Press Officer be any better or worse and they are naturaly going to make it look as good as they can for their guys. That is just a fact. My view on the press is one born of old and I take everything with a pinch of salt. No slight on any RNLI crew or the organisation as a whole is intended.

I don't think you will ever see anything that will be 100% fact for what happened. It will just be the outcome of the trial, there will be no MAIB report and the RYA will never publish anything from the Training Committee that dealt with Hot Liquid or the YMQP that dealt with Charlie.

I can however tell you that he (Charlie) was very p***** of with PBO, they said he kept the same bloke on helm all night, 9 hours. How he managed to helm while off watch for 4 hours was part of issue but there were apparently a number of other significant errors. His comment was something about tabloid reporting.

 

[Old Dog]

In, addition, can you please indicate in what way I have been impolite?

You seem to be saying that CS got it wrong and knows he did, but that ending up in court was a bit over the top. I rather suspect that if you left it at that you'd get a lot of sympathy here (including me). We all make mistakes.

I don't like the tactic of saying that the RNLI reports are substantially rubbish (rather than containing the odd erroneous detail). If that is untrue then it is a shameful tactic.
These guys went out at their own risk when called on, to perform the rescue.

But, the Sea school manager is probably a different kettle of fish, with a bit of previous he was bound to get the book thrown at him next time if he had'nt followed the previous recommendations. CS probably just chose the wrong employer this time.

Sorry I was impolite in saying that, it was the fact that you appeared to be starting down a route of saying I was not telling the whole truth. I think we have cleared that up so can we shake hands and get on with a discussion, I am starting to enjoy this.

I did not say "substantially rubbish", I hope I have explained in the other post? No one is going to knock the RNLI crew, I am just not convinced that their "Press Release" should be taken as 100% fact when there have been changes in what they say. I will stress again that I do not think that is them being dishonest just the normal confusion that will happen with something like this.

 

[jimi]

Sorry I was impolite in saying that, it was the fact that you appeared to be starting down a route of saying I was not telling the whole truth. I think we have cleared that up so can we shake hands and get on with a discussion, I am starting to enjoy this.

I did not say "substantially rubbish", I hope I have explained in the other post? No one is going to knock the RNLI crew, I am just not convinced that their "Press Release" should be taken as 100% fact when there have been changes in what they say. I will stress again that I do not think that is them being dishonest just the normal confusion that will happen with something like this.

So in that case would you agree that the RNLI report is substantially correct and that CS's perception may also coloured subliminally by self interest and tunnel vision in a stressful situation?

 

[Old Dog]

So in that case would you agree that the RNLI report is substantially correct and that CS's perception may also coloured subliminally by self interest and tunnel vision in a stressful situation?

LOL are you a Barrister?? That is of course correct but as we were not there I doubt we will ever now how correct any "report/perception" is. Court may give some clue.

But as I have become "Defence Barrister" I will comment on Charlie's background which includes service in hot sandy places where people shoot at you. Most of us from that background are good at coping with stressful situations and giving accurate reports. Its him on the helm in the videos and he brought the boat into Ramsgate so is a first hand view more accurate than a "Press Officers" second had one? You can tell I don't trust/like the press can't you.