Lily M sold @ £8k - one week into the Dutch auction

[ShinyShoe]

@shinyshoe
If you don't enjoy the films, don't donate. I thought that was kind of the point.

Well - so did I till I was named a "refusenik". Which according tho the dictionary... is "a person who refuses to follow orders or obey the law, especially as a protest."
I get the impression the term is meant to offend me into paying. In fact its done the exact opposite.

But please don't encourage Dyl to change them either. His regular followers don't want manufactured drama.

I didn't really think it likely. Firstly I'm not wanting manufactured drama. I just think the videos are very much scenery shots rather than a story about the journey. Every journey has little tiny bits of jeopardy - no need to manufacture it. Breakages, Time vs Tide, etc. BUT I wouldn't even expect that to change... ...which is really the point I'm making - any film, be it scenery or pure drama, will only have a limited audience who'd pay for it. I think Dylan is taking the huff at his "tap" rate when in fact I suspect he is using the wrong denominator in calculating his rate.

Dylan has retired as a professional camera man. He has an ambition to sail around the coastline and make entertaining films using his skills. He has tried to fund some of this by selling the films, by click count etc.

It's all very tame stuff and also very honest and enterprising of him. I compare Dylan's efforts to some charitable sail round Britain events and more than a few appear to be about the trip and financing it than the charity. I don't like that behaviour. Dylan's is honest.

I wouldn't disagree. Although I would hope these charitable ventures are putting all the money donated to charity not to berthing fees and fuel etc. and then just donating any "profit". But maybe thats my innocence!

Ultimately he is selling a product and there are not enough people prepared to pay for it. So either the product needs to improve or the product needs to change or the funding model needs to change.

 

[NormanB]

Well - so did I till I was named a "refusenik". Which according tho the dictionary... is "a person who refuses to follow orders or obey the law, especially as a protest."
I get the impression the term is meant to offend me into paying. In fact its done the exact opposite.

I didn't really think it likely. Firstly I'm not wanting manufactured drama. I just think the videos are very much scenery shots rather than a story about the journey. Every journey has little tiny bits of jeopardy - no need to manufacture it. Breakages, Time vs Tide, etc. BUT I wouldn't even expect that to change... ...which is really the point I'm making - any film, be it scenery or pure drama, will only have a limited audience who'd pay for it. I think Dylan is taking the huff at his "tap" rate when in fact I suspect he is using the wrong denominator in calculating his rate.


I wouldn't disagree. Although I would hope these charitable ventures are putting all the money donated to charity not to berthing fees and fuel etc. and then just donating any "profit". But maybe thats my innocence!

Ultimately he is selling a product and there are not enough people prepared to pay for it. So either the product needs to improve or the product needs to change or the funding model needs to change.

You are of course entitled to your view but I think you do not have a full understanding of the technicalities and costs of filmography in a maritime environment. If you have the endurance to suffer a pedestrian explaination have a look at this academic explaining his paper on the subject with particular reference to generating funding from You Tube and Patreon.

I totally get that you do not like Dylan's films - but you have latched onto the 'refusenik' handle when Dylan has been consistently clear that you are free to watch the films and 'tap' for what you think they were worth the experience for you to watch. So - You do not watch them, do not value them, do not tap and so - you are not a refusenik.

A ' refusenik' in this particular application is someone who watches all the films, enjoys and values them but then refuses to 'tap'.

Do you not understand that?

 

[Just_sayin']

He has an ambition to sail around the coastline and make entertaining films using his skills.

And complaining bitterly when people won't pay for his ambition. Did you know he has to pay for his own diesel to drive to his boat? We'll be asked to pick up the tab for his tyre wear soon.

and enterprising of him.

Yep, so enterprising that he managed to piss off the richest section of the forum who could run his boat for a year for him on just one tank of fuel for their boat.

I have seen two of his videos in full, one was a reasonably interesting one somewhere around Bembridge the other absolutely appalled me and others.

He was making his way up another muddy creek and someone DARED to overtake him in a boat with the engine running.

I thought Dylan was going to have a stroke. There was definitely a hInt of raving and spittle - "GO ON THEN , HOPE YOU'RE ENJOYING YOURSELF MORON, PEOPLE LIKE YOU MAKE ME SICK, THAT'S RIGHT, OFF YOU GO , HAVE FUN, OH HERE COMES THE WASH YOU F@@@@R" (Not verbatim but representative)

Actually his boat gave a little roll, he seemed disappointed.

Enterprising? He hasn't got a clue.

 

[robertj]

I'm what you call a refusenik. It kinda annoys me that you describe me as such. So I'm feeling compelled to comment:

- Someone who watches your stuff on YouTube may never have bought your DVD. I've watched a couple of your videos. I will be honest - the first wasn't my thing. It just didn't "float my boat". I have ambitions to sail round the UK. Watching someone else do the same hasn't the same result for me. There story is about the coast etc - which all seems very nice, but actually part of me sailing round the UK will be the risks, the adventure. It pains me to say it but "three men in a boat" ticks those boxes better than your videos. I'm not sure if that is editing, directing or good planning on your part that means there is no jeopardy!

- The second video I watched after people on here were ranting about how great they are. I thought perhaps the first I watched was just a dry spot so watched another. Sorry that's two clicks that didn't pay for you, the second still didn't float my boat. Now I know you may be saying I should still have paid something coz I watched them and you went to the effort of making them. To some extent I agree. But if I couldn't have watched them for free I almost certainly wouldn't have watched either.

- Calling me a refusenik does make me think about paying, but once I've given it due consideration I thought "No way - now that he called me a refusenik". I don't know how people buying DVDs know what they were buying / how you marketted them but I'd suggest you didn't get 100% return on anyone who browsed. If you'd said to your customer in the DVD days who was perhaps swaying if he should buy a copy that if he had a look and walked away he was being tight would you expect them to return as a loyal customer.

- To be clear they aren't unpleasant videos. But no-one is paying for me to sail round the country. I get that this is your job. But my job involves doing something different and saving enough money to do my sailing.

- Plenty of people on here have said they didn't realise this was your career etc. I'm going to say that may be part (bad) marketing, but also part of the story you are telling. It feels like a video blog much like many people are posting (free) on-line blogs as they sail round the world, as part of their way of keeping in touch but also their personal record of adventures. Of course what we don't see is the hours of editing you are doing etc.

You seem thoroughly cheesed off that YouTube is fleacing you. I don't think it needs to. You have a website. You can get YouTube paid access ( https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/3249165 ) but I don't know much about it. A cruder solution is to unlist the video, and embed the video on your website behind a paywall. That doesn't stop someone guessing the link or indeed someone re-posting it. Or it may be worth looking at Vimeo or another similar solution that may have better security options - needs at least a £5 a month package. It will allow you to restrict playback to only on your blog for instance.

You then need some adverts/trailers on YouTube, and fora' etc that will direct people to your blog for the full "episode". And ideally a trailer at the end of one episode ready for the next... Those need to make ME want to know more. Not a 30 second summary of the video. If there is any "jeopardy" - tell me about it - but certainly don't tell me how it was fixed.

**BUT** is there the same market for Christmas Gifts of an on-line subscription much like a DVD? If there is you'd probably want to get some GIFT Subscription arrangement set up so that people can actually "give" something to the recipient. The best of this sort of thing I've seen have actually had a physical keep sake (a small model of your boat for example) plus a voucher code etc. The worst send a print your own voucher email. You can offer both for different prices ;-)

Other options would be if you were hosting advertising on your blog you offer a pay to remove adverts option.

Again if Vimeo etc then you could have paid adverts in the videos? Would chandlers etc want some advertising space? (I guess YouTube doesn't allow that).

What do you know about your audience (paid and "refusniks") other than country. Is there any way to know are they even sailors, are they young, old, male, female etc. And other than being tight do you know why people you are hoping to hook in are not shelling out. Is the story wrong? Are they not finding your posts?

I've not been through all your videos. Is there an easy way to "get up to speed" for someone joining now...

If your audience is sailors - do you do enough planning & reviewing of why this harbour and its facilities. If I am copying your journey I may well want to pay for a video pilot.

Good post

 

[Kelpie]

I'm surprised to see all these people who don't watch or enjoy Dylan's videos contributing to this thread.

My take on it is that Dylan wants to make his videos in his own way, and he is skilled and persist enough to make a very fine product which is enjoyed by thousands. If he just wanted to sail around Britain then he could ditch the films and make his life so much easier. But for those of us who enjoy the films, this would seem like a terrible wasted opportunity.

I don't tap the Paypal button as often as I probably should, but KTL is the only thing that I pay to watch (ever since my TV aerial was blown away in a gale and I cancelled by license). I think it is worth it for a fix of virtual sailing whilst waiting for the weather to improve. I cross my fingers and hope that enough people think likewise and that the project can continue.

 

[robertj]

I have paid for the KTL videos and will not pay again.
I thought that Dylan was sailing around the uk with a video blog of the sail, partly funded by others who wished to pay for the privilege. I feel this is not the case as Dylan wants all his sail to be paid and insults those (for what ever reason) who do not want to contribute. Dylan seems to rattle the tin quite a lot but knowing what he paid for his 'lily m' and what she sold for he hasn't lost anything in fact he made a very good profit in such a short time, which somehow he's very quiet about here now.
I love Dylan's films, I find his grumpiness over motor boaters very amusing though on occasions insulting a bit of the faulty towers on water, possibly another angle for you Dylan just be more grumpy and insult everyone?
I hope you don't stop Dylan but give the tin rattling a rest please, I think most would return to chip in a few quid as everyone who owns a boat is (possibly not you Dylan) rich.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Now I know you may be saying I should still have paid something coz I watched them and you went to the effort of making them. To some extent I agree.

I disagree. It's like buskers in tube stations - sure, they have gone to trouble to learn an instrument, to get there and to play, but if I don't enjoy what they are playing I feel absolutely no moral obligation to pay a penny. You can't put a product out there for free and then whine when people don't pay for it. If it was that good then you (generic plural) wouldn't need to give it away for free.

By the way, I put a reasonable donation in the hat of the street performer I watched for five minutes on the Royal Mile last week because he was genuinely entertaining.

- Calling me a refusenik does make me think about paying, but once I've given it due consideration I thought "No way - now that he called me a refusenik".

Indeed. Insulting your potential donors is not, generally speaking, a successful begging strategy.

- To be clear they aren't unpleasant videos. But no-one is paying for me to sail round the country. I get that this is your job.

- Plenty of people on here have said they didn't realise this was your career etc. I'm going to say that may be part (bad) marketing, but also part of the story you are telling.

The message is mixed. On one side it's a vlog of wanderings round the coast of Britain. On the other it's a hard-nosed commercial venture. The two don't obviously mix. "Ordinary bloke in a cheap boat" and "professional film maker trying to earn a living" create very different expectations and attract very different audiences.

But my job involves doing something different and saving enough money to do my sailing.

And that, I think, will go for most of us here. This is a very pleasant community, most of the time, in which people go out of their way to help and entertain fellow sailors for free. It's a little hard to see why anyone should have a right to have their sailing subsidized. If a product sells then fine, if it doesn't the answer is to make something that does sell, not stick out a hand for a Fisher 25.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But please don't encourage Dyl to change them either. His regular followers don't want manufactured drama.

And what drama could be more manufactured than "Woe is me. Marina fees are expensive and now I must sell my beloved boat at a 45% profit. Give me money NOW or I shall have to stop sailing and kill these two cute puppies"?

Note: I made up the bit about the puppies.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I'm surprised to see all these people who don't watch or enjoy Dylan's videos contributing to this thread.

All publicity is good publicity.

That aside, I think the general interest is probly because KTL, before it degenerated into "give me money for my family holiday and in exchange I'll tell you what I think happened at Culloden", was a genuinely exciting and innovative idea, making clear in a way that the magazines do not that there are sailing adventures to be had in small, cheap boats. Many people found that refreshing and saw it as an affirmation of their type of sailing, a type which doesn't get much recognition in a world of Daily Mail articles about luxury yachts.

As a result, many people are interested in the fate of the project and quite a few, it seems, are disappointed in the turn (ha-ha) it has taken.

 

[Kelpie]

And what drama could be more manufactured than "Woe is me. Marina fees are expensive and now I must sell my beloved boat at a 45% profit. Give me money NOW or I shall have to stop sailing and kill these two cute puppies"?

Note: I made up the bit about the puppies.

I think you're stretching the meaning of 'manufactured'. Unless you think that Dyl actually goes to sleep on a mattress of £50 notes every night, and the whole 'I've run out of money and need to sell the boat' is made up?

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think you're stretching the meaning of 'manufactured'. Unless you think that Dyl actually goes to sleep on a mattress of £50 notes every night, and the whole 'I've run out of money and need to sell the boat' is made up?

There is a difference between "made up" and "manufactured". Keeping a boat in Kip marina, driving to it from Sussex every week or two and then complaining about the cost is a manufactured crisis, even if it's true and therefore not made up. Complaining about not being able to sail in Scotland any more (unless given money) despite owning an eminently suitable boat on a trailer is a manufactured crisis.

As to his general wealth, Dylan made clear when someone posted a link to the asking price of his house that he keeps his sailing finances completely separate from the rest of his life. Most of us do not have that luxury, but then most of us are not trying to make a profit from our sailing. It seems reasonable to assume that someone of working age who can afford to take months off work every year to go sailing is not exactly destitute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_with_the_Twisted_Lip

 

[jordanbasset]

- You do not watch them, do not value them, do not tap and so - you are not a refusenik.
A ' refusenik' in this particular application is someone who watches all the films, enjoys and values them but then refuses to 'tap'.

That was certainly my understanding of the way he was using refusenik. Any other interpretation would be silly. If I never watched or enjoyed his films I certainly would not be offended by the term refusenik as it would not apply to me.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

And complaining bitterly ..... Enterprising? He hasn't got a clue.

Well, the fact is he has done a good bit of it, made a go of it, small boat sailing, round the coast. The Jester chap sells books to keep sailing, he is very clear about that fact, that is how he funds his voyages. This is not different yet one is lauded the other is bashed.

Dylan has not marketed his venture well, but despite what you think it is enterprise, 100%, he is offering a series of films with narratives and music in return for a voluntary monetary contribution. Perhaps the current hiatus will allow the enterprise to relaunch with a different marketing strategy.

Not liking his stuff and criticism, is of course, fine, I guess it comes with the territory, but the thread is degenerating into the usual bash fest, compete with virtual in yer face spittle.

 

[Mister E]

To sell a boat by Dutch Auction is very unusual and can have a good yield. The downside is it can be sold for a lot less than you expect or want.
You take a risk, in this case it worked out.

Maybe if this method of auction is used more, then there might be less boats being left to rot. You get a price for what the individual is prepared to pay for a particular boat.

 

[ShinyShoe]

You are of course entitled to your view but I think you do not have a full understanding of the technicalities and costs of filmography in a maritime environment.

No I get that. I get that the kit to do it well is expensive. I get that it needs edited. I get that 60minutes of effort = 1 minute of video. I'm not dissing that at all.

If you have the endurance to suffer a pedestrian explaination have a look at this

The irony! Him telling us its all in the editing while droning on so slowly with no excitement - just a face to camera. I made it 22 minutes before I lost the will!

I totally get that you do not like Dylan's films - but you have latched onto the 'refusenik' handle when Dylan has been consistently clear that you are free to watch the films and 'tap' for what you think they were worth the experience for you to watch. So - You do not watch them, do not value them, do not tap and so - you are not a refusenik.

A ' refusenik' in this particular application is someone who watches all the films, enjoys and values them but then refuses to 'tap'.

Do you not understand that?

Nope. Because unless I'm mistaken, I'm one of Dylan's stats. I watched 2 full videos, convinced I was missing something. I may even have laughed a couple of times. But hey I laugh it all sorts of things and don't chuck a quid at someone for it. I doubt Dylan knows if 5000 people have watched 10 of his videos or 50,000 people each watched one. I don't think Youtube really knows that. But I'm in the denominator of his maths which he is calling a refusenik. His highly emotive word not mine.

That was certainly my understanding of the way he was using refusenik. Any other interpretation would be silly. If I never watched or enjoyed his films I certainly would not be offended by the term refusenik as it would not apply to me.

That's my point - I have watched. I didn't enjoy but how does Dylan know that... ...except my feedback here obviously!

I do quite like JumbleDuck's busker analogy... in which case I'm feeling like the guy who has bumped into a mate who said "you must go listen to the busker on platform 2 he is amazing" ... ... I go and listen to a couple of songs expecting to hear something amazing and while its not unpleasant music I doesn't have me wanting to go ask if he has a record contract and where can I hear more... unconvinced I wander off only to hear him shout after me that I'm a miserly tight git and he has to feed his kids and dog and buy new guitar strings etc. I've certainly chipped in to busker's hats before. I've even raved online about how good some have been. But not every one I've ever listened to. If buskers don't like that marketting model they should try and book a concert venue.

Just one or two last thoughts... before I un-follow this thread!

- If You tube pays $1 for every 1000 watches. Does it make sense to post a 30 minute film? Would 10 x 3 minute films not potentially produce 10 times the watches? I realise that might not be the case but there must be some fine tuning to be done to segment the videos down into more bite size chunks, plus that is more how youtubers like to watch I believe...

 

[Kelpie]

Re film clip length:
In the early days, yes, Youtube was the home of three minute clips, and trawling through them was a lucky dip method of viewing. But it's also tedious.
These days production values are better and Youtube has, at least in our household, largely taken over from TV. And we generally won't watch a film that is less than ten minutes long because, well, searching for and watching a series of short videos is not a very relaxing way to spend an evening- and also IME longer films tend to be better edited and produced.

 

[dunedin]

It feels like a lot of folks (Dylan included) are having a bad bout of winter depression - aka Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) - due to the long dark nights and cold weather.
Hopefully spring is in the air and spirits will improve with the longer days and more sunlight

General rule is not to make big decisions mid winter ?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Dylan has not marketed his venture well, but despite what you think it is enterprise, 100%, he is offering a series of films with narratives and music ...

Whose music?

I've certainly chipped in to busker's hats before.

I always throw something into a busker's hat if I like the music. I've busked myself and I know how nice it is to hear the clink of money arriving ... but I never expected anyone to chip in unless they liked what I was doing.

 

[Heckler]

I disagree. It's like buskers in tube stations - sure, they have gone to trouble to learn an instrument, to get there and to play, but if I don't enjoy what they are playing I feel absolutely no moral obligation to pay a penny. You can't put a product out there for free and then whine when people don't pay for it. If it was that good then you (generic plural) wouldn't need to give it away for free.

By the way, I put a reasonable donation in the hat of the street performer I watched for five minutes on the Royal Mile last week because he was genuinely entertaining.



Indeed. Insulting your potential donors is not, generally speaking, a successful begging strategy.





The message is mixed. On one side it's a vlog of wanderings round the coast of Britain. On the other it's a hard-nosed commercial venture. The two don't obviously mix. "Ordinary bloke in a cheap boat" and "professional film maker trying to earn a living" create very different expectations and attract very different audiences.



And that, I think, will go for most of us here. This is a very pleasant community, most of the time, in which people go out of their way to help and entertain fellow sailors for free. It's a little hard to see why anyone should have a right to have their sailing subsidized. If a product sells then fine, if it doesn't the answer is to make something that does sell, not stick out a hand for a Fisher 25.

If he wants to make a living from his skills as a cameraman he needs to work out what the market wants. I posted before, La Vagabonde and Delos, they got better and better, gave me and swmbo what we want to see. Eagerly await each episode. Barry Perrins, weird but very watchful and waiting for his next stuff! Dylan, you dont float my boat or a lot of others in the film making way. Work out from the market leaders what they are offering but also from the Barry Perrins and you will take off!
Stu

 

[CLB]

Dylan, I am a motorboater, so I know that you don't like me already, having watched enough of your films to understand you general feeling towards anyone with a motorboat, regardless as to whether they have actually caused you any annoyance or not personally. So I am going to be blunt.

When you started this adventure, you did it for the personal challenge. I seem to recall you saying that you were not getting any younger and wanted to see the coastline of the U.K. A very worthy adventure IMHO. The films you made were a few minutes long, probably didn't take very long at all to film and edit. They were more of an amateur blog, albeit with some obvious proffesional skills behind the scenes. The point is that the films seemed to be secondary to the adventure. You then got further in to the trip, changed boats three times, I believe, and during the process the films, and their ability to pay for the trip, seem to have become more important than the trip itself.

If you are spending a week to edit a film, and that film is not making you a weeks worth of wages, the might I suggest that you stop producing such professional quality films. Don't give up on the trip because of it, try and remember why you started out in the first place.

If you stop producing these films, you could use the week you spend editoring doing something that will pay you a proper wage. You can then go back to the trip as it was in the beginning.

At the moment you are coming across a bit like a spoilt child. I am not getting paid enough so I am taking my football home. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. None of us are getting any younger. Continue the trip for your own sake. Make films if you want, or don't, that's your call. Make em short again and largely unedited if you want to keep your friends and fellow boaters updated on what you are doing and where you are, but you clearly can't compete with these other yachting vloggers that you seem to have a growing resentment towards.

For the record, I enjoy your videos, despite your anti mobo stance, which seems to have diminished since leaving the crowded southern waters. We don't know each other but I sincerely hope you continue the trip, with or without videos, just because what you did when you set of was to embark on a dream that so many boaters have and, after all the effort you put in you really should finish what you started. I know you have said that you have completed the circle, but I don't think you could really stop now and believe that you gave the west coast the attention that you would have liked to.