Liferaft or Rhib - What would you choose?

[ylop]

By definition that will be unlikely in UK waters, because we just don'' have that many areas where the safe havens are 25nm apart.

But for those of us who go a bit further afield, it's not at all uncommon.

I was under the impression that this forum was a fairly wide church, and not reserved for those who coastal/weekend cruise.

Of course there are people who go much further afield, some with a wife and two kids aboard - but the OP specifically said in the UK. Tranona’s replies are based on the assumption that UK rescue services are available. His argument is that foundering with a family of 4 aboard 15 miles from shore are extremely rare - but if the vast majority of boats, especially boats like that, never go off shore the stats will not tell the true metric of risk: you need the denominator too.

 

[Sea Change]

Of course there are people who go much further afield, some with a wife and two kids aboard - but the OP specifically said in the UK. Tranona’s replies are based on the assumption that UK rescue services are available. His argument is that foundering with a family of 4 aboard 15 miles from shore are extremely rare - but if the vast majority of boats, especially boats like that, never go off shore the stats will not tell the true metric of risk: you need the denominator too.

I agree. You can use statistics to show that a great white shark is less dangerous than a golden retriever, but that's in very large part because we tend to avoid spending much time with sharks.

This thread seems to be outliving its usefulness. Surely the 'RIB vs raft' thing will simply come down to the events as they unfold. I can imagine a scenario where I would want one, and a scenario where I'd prefer the other. Or you could be like the Robertson family and use both.

 

[Tranona]

The use of the word "statistics" here is very misleading. The number of such events (the data) is so small that there is no pattern in just the numbers. The pattern is in the detailed account of the events where it is easy to find the common themes such as those I identified earlier. Study of the events is where the real understanding comes from. Of course not all such events result in a formal report - for example there are regular incidents that result in the loss of solo sailors where there is so little known about what happened or incidents where there was a successful rescue. For obvious reasons such unexplained losses are more common outside the reach of land based rescue services. However like the coastal waters experiences there is enough in the way of survival stories to establish a pattern of both causes and effective survival strategies that can inform potential ocean voyagers.

 

[ylop]

The use of the word "statistics" here is very misleading. The number of such events (the data) is so small that there is no pattern in just the numbers. The pattern is in the detailed account of the events where it is easy to find the common themes such as those I identified earlier. Study of the events is where the real understanding comes from. Of course not all such events result in a formal report - for example there are regular incidents that result in the loss of solo sailors where there is so little known about what happened or incidents where there was a successful rescue. For obvious reasons such unexplained losses are more common outside the reach of land based rescue services. However like the coastal waters experiences there is enough in the way of survival stories to establish a pattern of both causes and effective survival strategies that can inform potential ocean voyagers.

What you don't have is any data on all the close to shore incidents which were rapidly resolved because another vessel or a rescue service was on scene in minutes and foundering was avoided but which had the same problem happened 15 miles off shore, with help over an hour away might have been much more serious. Every vessel in the solent taking on water, or with smoke coming from its engine room is a vessel that might have foundered if its issue emerged 25 miles from the nearest help in F5-6. I'm not arguing that we should all carry liferafts, I'm pointing out that going prepared for a serious issue is probaby prudent if you are going to be 90 minutes from help. Prepared could be with a liferaft or a suitable dinghy.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

By definition that will be unlikely in UK waters, because we just don'' have that many areas where the safe havens are 25nm apart.

But for those of us who go a bit further afield, it's not at all uncommon.

I was under the impression that this forum was a fairly wide church, and not reserved for those who coastal/weekend cruise.

Having sailed the Bristol Channel, I can assure you that not only are there no ports of refuge on the english side and that ports of refuge on the welsh side are far apart. Its not Lake Solent though one could argue that its family unfriendly

Even on the family friendly S Devon S Cornwall coast Ports of Refuge can easily be 25nm apart or more. Basically Dartmouth, Plymouth, Fowey Falmouth Newlyn. Assuming halfway between that 3 or 4 hours for a yacht. And many passages can be quite some distance off shore.

A liferaft is like a pilots parachute - one hopes never to need it and probably wnt but .....

 

[Tranona]

What you don't have is any data on all the close to shore incidents which were rapidly resolved because another vessel or a rescue service was on scene in minutes and foundering was avoided but which had the same problem happened 15 miles off shore, with help over an hour away might have been much more serious. Every vessel in the solent taking on water, or with smoke coming from its engine room is a vessel that might have foundered if its issue emerged 25 miles from the nearest help in F5-6. I'm not arguing that we should all carry liferafts, I'm pointing out that going prepared for a serious issue is probaby prudent if you are going to be 90 minutes from help. Prepared could be with a liferaft or a suitable dinghy.

Neither am I arguing that you should not carry a liferaft if you think it wise, just that on the available evidence over the last 30 years or so the need is questionable for pleasure yachts in the majority of UK coastal waters. The developments in boats, equipment, weather forecasting, communications, rescue services and so on since the 1979 Fastnet incident have resulted in a massive reduction in the number of yachts, both straight pleasure and racing, foundering, even though the number of incidents that could potentially lead to foundering and loss of life have massively increased. The RNLI and Coastguard annual reports will bear this out.

This does not mean such incidents do not still occur, but increasingly they are very particular and very much unlike the type of situation that the majority of coastal sailors are likely to find themselves in. Much the same is true of offshore and ocean sailing, despite what some old diehards would have you believe. The major difference of course is the proximity to rescue services which means a loss of the boat after damage is more likely so a liferaft becomes vital and a dinghy to take with you more useful.

 

[Tranona]

Having sailed the Bristol Channel, I can assure you that not only are there no ports of refuge on the english side and that ports of refuge on the welsh side are far apart. Its not Lake Solent though one could argue that its family unfriendly

Even on the family friendly S Devon S Cornwall coast Ports of Refuge can easily be 25nm apart or more. Basically Dartmouth, Plymouth, Fowey Falmouth Newlyn. Assuming halfway between that 3 or 4 hours for a yacht. And many passages can be quite some distance off shore.

A liferaft is like a pilots parachute - one hopes never to need it and probably wnt but .....

The Bristol Channel southern Irish Sea and the Western Approaches in general are arguably the most "dangerous" waters around the UK and where a disproportionate number of losses have occurred. A combination of factors - lack of safe havens, leeward shores, open to the Atlantic and in the path of depressions (today is a good one to remind us of this!) plus a lot of boating activity. Arguments for carrying a liferaft even if it is to satisfy that residual fear rather than there being a real chance of it being needed.

 

[Tamar]

If you go the life raft route I would suggest an 8 or even better a 10 person life raft. A 6 person raft is going to be hellish with 4 people onboard. Also a small rib like the one you propose is going to be an horrible experience in those conditions.

 

[PaulRainbow]

If you go the life raft route I would suggest an 8 or even better a 10 person life raft. A 6 person raft is going to be hellish with 4 people onboard. Also a small rib like the one you propose is going to be an horrible experience in those conditions.

It's recommended that you don't have too big a liferaft. If it's a rough sea you'll get thrown around more.

 

[Boathook]

If you go the life raft route I would suggest an 8 or even better a 10 person life raft. A 6 person raft is going to be hellish with 4 people onboard. Also a small rib like the one you propose is going to be an horrible experience in those conditions.

Liferafts with to few people in are more likely to be overturned, etc.
If you normally sail with 4 onboard get a liferaft for that number of people. A fifth person can always be squeezed in that makes the liferaft more stable.

 

[Tamar]

Liferafts with to few people in are more likely to be overturned, etc.
If you normally sail with 4 onboard get a liferaft for that number of people. A fifth person can always be squeezed in that makes the liferaft more stable.

Sorry I was going to give a long answer but I can't be arsed

 

[Sea Change]

It's recommended that you don't have too big a liferaft. If it's a rough sea you'll get thrown around more.

This is the accepted wisdom. However a few years ago I was looking in to a secondhand Viking raft, which was far higher spec than I could afford new, and was 6 person. We needed it for a trip with two adults and a child.
I contacted Viking to see what they thought about the mis-match, and they expressed no concern whatsoever about under loading. The ballast pockets ought to be enough, according to them.

(In the end I decided it was too old, and bought a brand new self righting Sea Safe 4 man)

 

[seeSimon]

Well if you think you can readily lift a 32kg object over the guard rails from cockpit or foredeck from a storm tossed boat or from one tilted on its side having gone aground, then you are much stronger and nimble than most of us. OK on steady ground and while warm and dry but thats not a yacht accident scenario.

I agree with you!
However...

See my post at 15, above...Don't know that i particularly mentioned running aground? No matter...

I sail (usually short handed - 2) a 26ft lift keel boat, open transom. No space on foredeck or hatch garage. The raft must go either down into the cabin, or in the deep cockpit locker.

I was effectively forced to acquire and carry this raft, at not insignificant cost and some ongoing inconvenience, in order to comply with the requirements of my local race organising "Authority ", who when pressed have stated that this is now an "RYA REQUIREMENT ". It is non negotiable and the "Authority " very forcefully blocked any debate.
No raft = no coastal races. Daylight, favourable weather. Some 15 miles from lifeboat stations, and perhaps < 30 mins from HMCG helo base.
The boat is RCD Cat C, for what little that is worth?

I had previously relied on: phones + 2x handheld VHFs, DSC Fixed. PLB, 200% lifejackets (Teamo primaries), 100% solas immersion suits. 2 x lifebuoys, flares, strobes. We also carry 300% fire extinguishers, hopefully to minimise one likely cause of abandonment.
We also carried a dinghy in order to get ashore at destination port.

Yes, I've moaned about this before! Sorry, but nice to have someone agree that launching such a raft would be very difficult indeed.

 

[Tranona]

I agree with you!
However...

See my post at 15, above...Don't know that i particularly mentioned running aground? No matter...

I sail (usually short handed - 2) a 26ft lift keel boat, open transom. No space on foredeck or hatch garage. The raft must go either down into the cabin, or in the deep cockpit locker.

I was effectively forced to acquire and carry this raft, at not insignificant cost and some ongoing inconvenience, in order to comply with the requirements of my local race organising "Authority ", who when pressed have stated that this is now an "RYA REQUIREMENT ". It is non negotiable and the "Authority " very forcefully blocked any debate.
No raft = no coastal races. Daylight, favourable weather. Some 15 miles from lifeboat stations, and perhaps 30 mins from HMCG helo base.
The boat is RCD Cat C, for what little that is worth?

I had previously relied on: phones + 2x handheld VHFs, DSC Fixed. PLB, 200% lifejackets (Teamo primaries), 100% solas immersion suits. 2 x lifebuoys, flares, strobes. We also carry 300% fire extinguishers, hopefully to minimise one likely cause of abandonment.
We also carried a dinghy in order to get ashore at destination port.

Yes, I've moaned about this before! Sorry, but nice to have someone agree that launching such a raft would be very difficult indeed.

Good example of decisions made without either evidence of need or consideration of the practicalities