Liferaft or Rhib - What would you choose?

[Blue Seas]

Why do you think your boat is going to sink in those circumstances? almost unheard of in UK coastal waters. If you really think your boat is so badly maintained that those events will happen then do something about it. Reported founderings have 3 main causes, collision, overwhelming weather or serious structural failure. All are rare and easily avoided. That is not to say that incidents don't happen that could potentially lead to a foundering but we have arguably the best rescue services available. In extreme circumstances where it is necessary to abandon ship there is no substitute for a proper in date liferaft.

That's an interesting post Tranona, I could engage in a number of questions but I will restrict myself to just one....

If the Rib onboard the vessel did not work, or if indeed there was not a Rib onboard, only an in-date Liferaft, and therefore the RNLI attended in order to evacuate, do you think that the Coxswain of the inshore Lifeboat would suggest that the boat crew joined him in his Rib or would he suggest that all personnel (boat crew and lifeboat crew) take to the "proper in date Liferaft for which there is no substitute"? and paddle 15 miles from there?

 

[westernman]

I would launch the RIB and take the liferaft with me.

You can get places in the RIB.
You can survive any storm in a liferaft but you can't decide where to go and it will be a dreadful experience.

 

[Hadenough]

That's an interesting post Tranona, I could engage in a number of questions but I will restrict myself to just one....

If the Rib onboard the vessel did not work, or if indeed there was not a Rib onboard, only an in-date Liferaft, and therefore the RNLI attended in order to evacuate, do you think that the Coxswain of the inshore Lifeboat would suggest that the boat crew joined him in his Rib or would he suggest that all personnel (boat crew and lifeboat crew) take to the "proper in date Liferaft for which there is no substitute"? and paddle 15 miles from there?

????????

 

[ylop]

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That's an interesting post Tranona, I could engage in a number of questions but I will restrict myself to just one....

If the Rib onboard the vessel did not work, or if indeed there was not a Rib onboard, only an in-date Liferaft, and therefore the RNLI attended in order to evacuate, do you think that the Coxswain of the inshore Lifeboat would suggest that the boat crew joined him in his Rib or would he suggest that all personnel (boat crew and lifeboat crew) take to the "proper in date Liferaft for which there is no substitute"? and paddle 15 miles from there?

It would be very unusual for an inshore lifeboat (even an Atlantic 85) to be deployed 15 miles from shore and 20-25 from a safe haven.

In any case clearly the OP was not talking about 1800 kg of RIB!

I would launch the RIB and take the liferaft with me.

You can get places in the RIB.
You can survive any storm in a liferaft but you can't decide where to go and it will be a dreadful experience.

Four people on even a large well powered tender in the conditions described in the OP is going to be a pretty dreadful experience too.

 

[philwebb]

Or even an Orca ripping his rudder off...
Oh, that must have been poor maintenance...

The OP did say UK coastal waters. Orca seem to be some distance South of us.

 

[billskip]

The OP did say UK coastal waters. Orca seem to be some distance South of us.

Thort the original post said "imaginary scenario "
Don't you have any imagination?

 

[philwebb]

Thort the original post said "imaginary scenario "
Don't you have any imagination?

No

 

[Tranona]

That's an interesting post Tranona, I could engage in a number of questions but I will restrict myself to just one....

If the Rib onboard the vessel did not work, or if indeed there was not a Rib onboard, only an in-date Liferaft, and therefore the RNLI attended in order to evacuate, do you think that the Coxswain of the inshore Lifeboat would suggest that the boat crew joined him in his Rib or would he suggest that all personnel (boat crew and lifeboat crew) take to the "proper in date Liferaft for which there is no substitute"? and paddle 15 miles from there?

Your hypothetical scenario is not what happens in reality. Only very rarely does a yacht become uninhabitable, that is you need to abandon it at 5-10 minutes notice. Apart from catastrophic structural failure or collision (both very rare) incidents that might result in foundering and abandonment are relatively slow burn. It takes a lot to sink a yacht - just read the reports of rescues or just watch Saving Lives at Sea, or the YM project of how to sink a yacht of a few years ago. You will most likely be rescued in our coastal waters long before your boat sinks so the advice is always to stay with the boat and resort to the life raft as it is sinking. If you have done the training for liferaft deployment or read the rescue accounts you will appreciate how traumatic the experience can be. Equally if you are going to use your RIB you will likely only be able to do this in relatively benign conditions with the yacht still well afloat and stable. Why would you want to be in an open boat in heavy conditions when your yacht is still afloat? The notion that you just step off the sinking yacht into a ready and waiting liferaft is far from reality as is the idea that you will be able to launch and board your RIB in a F5/6 with a sea running.

Pretty sure the RNLI advice will be to stay with the boat until it sinks and then take to the liferaft. But of course it depends on the situation at the time - both you, the coastguard and lifeboat/chopper will assess the situation and choose the best course of action.

It is different if you are way offshore and out of reach of the instant rescue services. You are then on your own and taking to the liferaft even with the boat still afloat is maybe the best - or least worst option and some have found taking the dinghy with them a great help as it enables them to take more survival gear with them. However in our coastal waters, rescue services will reach you in a very short period of time and the objective for you is to call them as soon as you think you have a problem, make sure they know where you are and follow their advice.

Back to my original point. When I first carried out research into this subject 15 years ago, founderings in UK coastal waters were relatively common - 2 or 3 a year in the late 1990s up to about 10 years ago. The common themes as I suggested were structural failures, mostly racing boats losing keels, extreme weather and collisions. AIS has just about eliminated collisions, improved weather forecasting means people don't get caught out and racing boats now have better keels. Of course you still get random events but none of the mum and dad plus 2.4 in a well found modern yacht as you describe.

 

[Stemar]

We're rarely more than half a dozen miles from the coast, and sail on a pretty tight budget, so our flubber is our liferaft. It lives on davits, with the OB attached, so we could deploy it within a minute or two. Before we had the davits, we towed it, at least partly so it was immediately available.

Assuming we've put out an SOS, I'd stay in the vicinity of the boat - the position we gave in the SOS, so the cavalry can find us quickly. Only if we hadn't sent a distress call - and couldn't from the dinghy - would I head for the shore.

 

[lustyd]

Chuck the raft into the rib and get into the rib and head for shore. With the rib you are at least in some control of your own destiny.

Our four man Seago liferaft isn’t something that can be “chucked”. It takes two men to lift it onto the pushpit harness and I wouldn't drop it into a RIB in calm conditions let alone a F6 sea state. Doing so would damage one or both of the raft and rib.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Imaginary scenario.

UK coastal cruising, 10-15 miles offshore, 20-25 to nearest harbour / safe beach. Force 5 Occ 6. Uncomfortable but not dire. 2 Adults + 2 kids, all with lifejackets, reasonably fit. You have to abandon ship (fire /flood) at say 5-10 mins notice max.

Your choices, you have onboard;

a) 6 man liferaft, in-date, plus as many grab bags as you can throw in or,

b) 3.5 meter Rib, 15 H/P O/B, 5 gals fuel, fully charged battery, installed vhf and nav lights, plus again whatever you had time to chuck in.

What would you choose and why?

RIB assuming it’s on davits or being towed. Otherwise liferaft.

In a fire, the boat will be brought to a stop, and likely lying beam on or slightly sculling about fore reaching. This would make launching a deck stored RIB impossible due to smoke and fire advancing. Fastest way off the boat in this case would be by chucking the liferaft overboard to windward (to avoid smoke) or leeward aft quarter.

Getting in the RIB in all other cases is a no brainer for your theoretical situation. In small seas. Why sit there floating about waiting on rescue, when you can travel to safety.

Liferaft or RIB is a moot point because in the panic to launch the RIB something goes wrong in the 4’ to 13’ (F5-6) waves and the RIB becomes useless and the liferaft burns down with the rest of the boat, before it sinks with the boat.. My point is, it depends and your scenario allows lots of options depending on the assumptions one makes.

My personal opinion is that you should have an abandonment plan that includes both RIB and, or Liferaft which considers when an option can or can’t be used. It should go without saving that lifesaving gear is only useful if it is ready to be immediately used.

It doesn’t need to be anything formal, or even written down, a mental exercise, with a bit of practice is all that is needed. Your regular crew needs to understand as well in case you become incapacitated.

 

[lustyd]

I would launch the RIB and take the liferaft with me

A 6 man liferaft (as in OPs scenario) is 46kg. Even if you somehow managed to drop it into the RIB, you’d struggle to get it launched from there. A 6 man raft would take up the majority of space in the small RIB mentioned too, as well as dangerously overloading it.

Taking it with you sounds good but is actually a terrible answer

 

[ylop]

A 6 man liferaft (as in OPs scenario) is 46kg. Even if you somehow managed to drop it into the RIB, you’d struggle to get it launched from there. A 6 man raft would take up the majority of space in the small RIB mentioned too, as well as dangerously overloading it.

Taking it with you sounds good but is actually a terrible answer

I don't think mine is as heavy as that - although it's definitely not light or compact! We are toying with downgrading to a 4 man when its replaces as 65% of the time we are two people, 30% four people, and only very occassionally 6 up - probably close to shore. I had assumed people who were "taking it with them" were launching the raft and towing it.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Never more than 20 miles from shore and never leave if bad weather is forecast. Our 3m tender with a 8Hp outboard is on davits. If i had to i could launch it in a couple of minutes, without power or hydraulics, it's lowered by hand winches. We don't go out in bad conditions. In the unlikely event of needing to abandon ship i'd rather be making my own way to safety than waiting for the lifeboat. I'd obviously be/have been in touch with the coastguard and we carry two handhled DSC radios to maintain that contact.

 

[dunedin]

In the sad real life case of a disastrous fire on board a year or so ago, the big issue seems to have been the fire preventing access to get emergency beacons - EPIRB / PLB. The British couple got into their dinghy or liferaft (would have to check accident report as to which), but unable to send distress message. Found dead in the liferaft / dinghy a few weeks later.
Fire scorches on lifejackets suggested very fierce fire was cause of abandonment (Atlantic off Canada crossing back to UK, not coastal UK).

So the priority should probably be an EPIRB or PLB accessible from the cockpit. We keep the old PLB (past official date but battery strength still perfect) permanently in the dinghy seat bag - more in case stranded ashore on a remote uninhabited island, than fire, but serves both purposes.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Perhaps - but it is extremely rare in small sailing boats and rarely results in foundering. You can imagine all sorts of scenarios but much more difficult to find empirical evidence of them actually occurring.

So no point carrying flares, wearing life jackets, having a DSC radio, Epirbs, PLBs etc etc etc

Besides, it's not hard to find evidence of boats getting into difficulty where crew abandon. Just because you didn't personally hear about them does not mean that they didn't happen.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Liferaft.

If you hit a part sunk shipping container or suffer fuel or gas explosion, you wont have time to launch a RIB let alone get to where its stored. A Liferaft on the stern rail ( never ever on foredeck or coachroof) can be launch literally as you leave cockpit, or even as yacht sinks away beneath you. 4 or 5 hours in an open RIB will see you dead if clothes are damp and its anything but high summer and flat calm

 

[thinwater]

I would not have an RIB that was not on good davits. Just dumb IMO. I've launched in F5-6 many times, not difficult, just not super easy. But easier than frogging around with the LR.

Toss in a grab bag and a spare jerry of gas (which you should have) and slowly head for shore. A good story, but not terrifying.

Fire is not that far fetched. No matter how well maintained, you never know what chafed behind a bulkhead. I had a wire chafe behind a head liner before (PO work) and start smoking 15 miles off-shore. It was "stimulating," but we got it out quickly with no important damamge. It's smart to have plans in your head. I also hit a submerged log once. Bent a rudder, but I have two (after disconnecting it we just continued the cruise). However, it's not hard to imagine serious damamge (I dove while hove to and took a look). Stuff happens.

 

[Tranona]

So no point carrying flares, wearing life jackets, having a DSC radio, Epirbs, PLBs etc etc etc

Besides, it's not hard to find evidence of boats getting into difficulty where crew abandon. Just because you didn't personally hear about them does not mean that they didn't happen.

Don't make things up - I never said any of that. You clearly have not read what I wrote.

Yes, people get into difficulties, but only a very tiny number in our coastal waters result in foundering. Just check the MAIB reports over the last 30 years and see how many you can find. It is not what I "personally" hear but the result of researching the sources where such incidents are reported.

There would of course be far more if people did not carry the various devices for calling for help, have seaworthy boats, pay attention to weather and plan accordingly and keep away from hard bits of land and other ships. The ability to do all this ahs improved enormously over the last 30 years, hence the dramatic fall in the number of founderings of small pleasure craft.

 

[Tranona]

In the sad real life case of a disastrous fire on board a year or so ago, the big issue seems to have been the fire preventing access to get emergency beacons - EPIRB / PLB. The British couple got into their dinghy or liferaft (would have to check accident report as to which), but unable to send distress message. Found dead in the liferaft / dinghy a few weeks later.
Fire scorches on lifejackets suggested very fierce fire was cause of abandonment (Atlantic off Canada crossing back to UK, not coastal UK).

So the priority should probably be an EPIRB or PLB accessible from the cockpit. We keep the old PLB (past official date but battery strength still perfect) permanently in the dinghy seat bag - more in case stranded ashore on a remote uninhabited island, than fire, but serves both purposes.

An excellent example of what might happen if you go to sea in an unseaworthy craft, particularly in waters as hostile as where they were.

Difficult to imagine a scenario more different from that posed by the OP.