Lifejackets - manual or automatic?

[Catamaran]

Surely this question can not be answered without some perspective?

An auto lifejacket belowdecks in a flooded, keel-less, upturned boat is a death sentence. In open water, knocked-out by a gybing boom, it could be the only thing to save you.

A clunky foam buoyancy aid is unlikely to be practical in an offshore situation. on the foredeck.

They all have their place and it's a sensible skipper's decision, which to supply... What type of sailing, boat and prevailing conditions being among the factors considered.

 

[[70521]]

An auto lifejacket belowdecks in a flooded, keel-less, upturned boat is a death sentence.

Is this a common occurrence?

 

[Triassic]

Perhaps we should be asking what is a common occurrence where the wearing of a lifejacket actually provided some benefit? I do sometimes wonder what percentage of people wear a life jacket because they see it as the "sensible" thing to do without really thinking through the likely causes of them needing it?

It seems to me that the vast majority of people who end up in the water either do so because of a trip/fall on the side deck of a monohull, often bought about by a sudden unexpected movement such as a crash gybe, or they were trying to get in or out of a dinghy.

In the first case I think there is a strong case for advocating an auto inflating lifejacket because the person may well have been injured during the incident and be unable to inflate it themselves, in the second I have to ask do they really need a lifejacket at all? Surely there can't be a sailor amongst us who at some point hasn't fallen in whilst reaching for the dinghy/dock and all you do is bob up next to the boat, curse a bit, and clamber back on board? (Non-swimmers aside, it obviously makes sense for them to wear one anywhere around deep water).

We all see the press reports where someone has been lost, and it usually mentions if they were wearing a lifejacket or not, however when a life is actually saved because one was being worn we tend not to hear about it as it's a bit of a non-event. Anyone on here still posting thanks to a lifejacket?

 

[Catamaran]

Is this a common occurrence?

Not in the type of sailing most people do... But there are incidences, I believe, where people have been trapped under an upturned boat due to a fully inflated lifejacket.

I always remove my vest belowdecks anyway... The point is what works perfectly in one situation may not work as well in another and people should be aware of that.

 

[mlines]

We have manual lifejackets as we felt getting wet/damp in an open boat was quite likely. I fell in off Poole in March and of course the water was freezing, the cold shock meant I could not find and pull the tab to fire the jacket. We have now changed to buoyancy aids. These are not rated as life preservation but they give you that instant help and thinking time. As we never boat alone and are "fair weather" boaters I think these are best for us. We have the manual lifejackets on board and would swap to them if conditions change.

 

[mlines]

But there are incidences, I believe, where people have been trapped under an upturned boat due to a fully inflated lifejacket.

In a very sad incident a couple of years ago an army cadet was trapped and drowned under a boat due to a life jacket. In that case it was the wrong lifejacket (designed to keep a fully kitted squaddie afloat not a teenage girl) but its a similar effect. Needless to say but we are now paranoid when taking cadets on the water.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...h-wearing-wrong-lifejacket-when-she-died.html

 

[KellysEye]

>I'm one of the many who voted for auto, as if I get bashed on the head by the boom, and fall OB, I want the thing to inflate while I'm un or semi conscious.

Agree. However as I've said before we viewed them as something to put on when getting in a life raft. The key thing is to stop an MOB and that means jackstays a U bolt in the cockpit and a harness with a long and short tether. We wore them at night and in bad weather.

 

[pete]

A very close call.

2 friends were crossing the river in a small inflatable to the mooring trot on the far bank, the tide was flooding at around 3 to 4 Kn. Their outboard started playing up half way and they could not make their boat, as my boat is further down the same trot they managed to grab hold of my toe rail at the bow. (for some reason my twin rudders were slightly out of line with the tide causing more turbulence) Their dinghy tipped up and went from under them and they were both left hanging onto the toe rail, one managed to reach my cockpit but the other could not hold on and plunged into the water. He went under my boat before his automatic life jacket inflated and lifted him up under my hull where he got caught on my propeller/rope cutter.

The water is full of silt and there is no visibility at all. After struggling for quite a while he fortunately managed to free himself but in the process cut or tore his life jacket causing it to leak (probably on my rope cutter (stripper). Fortunately he was eventually rescued 2 or 3 miles up river by the RNLI.

No jacket is perfect but in this case a manual one may have been better.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

Perhaps we should be asking what is a common occurrence where the wearing of a lifejacket actually provided some benefit? I do sometimes wonder what percentage of people wear a life jacket because they see it as the "sensible" thing to do without really thinking through the likely causes of them needing it?

It seems to me that the vast majority of people who end up in the water either do so because of a trip/fall on the side deck of a monohull, often bought about by a sudden unexpected movement such as a crash gybe, or they were trying to get in or out of a dinghy.

In the first case I think there is a strong case for advocating an auto inflating lifejacket because the person may well have been injured during the incident and be unable to inflate it themselves, in the second I have to ask do they really need a lifejacket at all? Surely there can't be a sailor amongst us who at some point hasn't fallen in whilst reaching for the dinghy/dock and all you do is bob up next to the boat, curse a bit, and clamber back on board? (Non-swimmers aside, it obviously makes sense for them to wear one anywhere around deep water).

We all see the press reports where someone has been lost, and it usually mentions if they were wearing a lifejacket or not, however when a life is actually saved because one was being worn we tend not to hear about it as it's a bit of a non-event. Anyone on here still posting thanks to a lifejacket?

The majority of drowning of yachtsmen are related to falling out of tenders or dockside. Falling off a boat sea is rare in both absolute and relative to the amount of time at sea.

A big research project reported from RYA, RNLI, MCA last year clearly showed a significant of drowning could have been avoided if a lifejacket had been worn.

 

[Stork_III]

It happened on a nice calm sunny day last summer off of Felixstowe. which is why i posed the question

Let's wait for the MIAB report (currently at consultation stage, so imminent release), to see if LJ played ant part in that tragedy.

 

[charles_reed]

I've seen accidental inflation with both auto and manual lifevests. In fact I was jammed between shrouds and mast 30nm N of Donostia in a Bf 7, due to a manual one going off. The well-known example of a lady (of ample proportions) being jammed in the mainhatch by her auto jacket going off is one which the lady herself relays with amusement.
Being single-handed I prefer to rely on the built-in harness rather than the jacket buoyancy - the one occasion I slipped twixt dinghy and shore @ midnight was when I wasn't wearing a lifejacket and the 140m I had to swim to the nearest ladder would have been impossible (IMHO) in an inflated jacket.
So I eschew auto-jackets, only wear them for the harness and think the whole emphasis on lifejacket wearing is terribly misguided.

 

[prv]

the 140m I had to swim to the nearest ladder would have been impossible (IMHO) in an inflated jacket.

So deflate it once you've gathered your wits and before starting the swim? Or indeed partly deflate it enough to give freedom of movement but still some buoyancy, if that's helpful?

I used to swim some longish distances in an inflated diving jacket as my dad and I used to shore-dive when i was a teenager. On my back lying comfortably in the jacket I felt like I could go on indefinitely. Though admittedly that was with fins on, I guess you need more arm movement without them.

Pete

 

[LittleSister]

Surely this question can not be answered without some perspective?

An auto lifejacket belowdecks in a flooded, keel-less, upturned boat is a death sentence. In open water, knocked-out by a gybing boom, it could be the only thing to save you.

A clunky foam buoyancy aid is unlikely to be practical in an offshore situation. on the foredeck.

They all have their place and it's a sensible skipper's decision, which to supply... What type of sailing, boat and prevailing conditions being among the factors considered.

Indeed, so this thread is about exploring the different decisions forumite skippers come to, given the competing considerations.

(And so we can have fun deciding whether or not any particular poster shows themselves to be 'sensible'! )

 

[JumbleDuck]

Perhaps we should be asking what is a common occurrence where the wearing of a lifejacket actually provided some benefit? I do sometimes wonder what percentage of people wear a life jacket because they see it as the "sensible" thing to do without really thinking through the likely causes of them needing it?

I don't wear a lifejacket. I wear a harness. It has a lifejacket built in, which is nice but quite definitely its secondary function.

In a very sad incident a couple of years ago an army cadet was trapped and drowned under a boat due to a life jacket. In that case it was the wrong lifejacket (designed to keep a fully kitted squaddie afloat not a teenage girl) but its a similar effect.

That accident was a classic combination of errors (https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c701eed915d4c1000006f/RigidRaiderReport.pdf) perhaps the worst of which was getting the headcount wrong(they only had to count to twelve) and leaving a cadet under the boat for several hours. Not terribly impressive.

The majority of drowning of yachtsmen are related to falling out of tenders or dockside. Falling off a boat sea is rare in both absolute and relative to the amount of time at sea.

Have you got a reference for that? I'm not doubting you, and indeed it is what I have always believed, but it would be good to have some solid evidence for it. I've also heard that most of those who die falling out of tenders are drunk, and it would be interesting to have statistics for that as well.

 

[westernman]

Have you got a reference for that? I'm not doubting you, and indeed it is what I have always believed, but it would be good to have some solid evidence for it. I've also heard that most of those who die falling out of tenders are drunk, and it would be interesting to have statistics for that as well.

I have also heard that the majority of people who fall in and drown from a yacht, are drunk and have their fly undone (and were trying to take a piss at the time).

But I don't have the reference for that either......

 

[DownWest]

?

Anyone on here still posting thanks to a lifejacket?

Yes thanks. I had to swim around 500mt fully clothed in March. The boat was carried by the wind faster than I could swim. It was an oral inflation and, as I mentioned above, very difficult to inflate in choppy water. I was further hampered by the valve blowing out of the inflation tube as I tried to centre the LJ to make thing easier to swim. So virtually all the way I had one hand on the folded tube, so swimming was pretty slow. On getting to the shore, to say I was knackered would be understating it, as I couldn't use my legs for a while. The inflation tube showed no sign of deterioration. Lj went in bin and new manual gas ordered.

 

[prv]

It was an oral inflation and, as I mentioned above, very difficult to inflate in choppy water.

Oral inflation only? Must have been positively prehistoric! I literally don't think I've ever seen such a lifejacket, only read about them in old sailing books from the 70s...

Pete

 

[Border Terrier]

I use a manual gas one (with built in harness). Should I ever go over the side unconscious, and not be brought round by the shock of the cold water, others may regret my choice. Much more likely, especially as I do a lot of single-handing, is that I'll need to swim back to the boat, or elsewhere, and haul myself out. That's very difficult in an inflated lifejacket. So I can decide for myself whether and when I want it inflated. (I've never had one go off accidentally)



I also have an old 'spare' lifejacket that has enough foam to make it a buoyancy aid uninflated, but the buoyancy can be topped up by blowing into the tube to make it a proper lifejacket . (No harness.)

My ideal lifejacket would be something like: integral harness; foam to buoyancy aid standard; manual trigger gas inflated; cunning sensor that detects when immersed, triggers a timer, and if I haven't pressed the cancel inflate button within a certain time triggers autoinflate. (It would also be supremely comfortable, cheap as chips, and elegantly styled )

+ 1 and now let's consider life expectancy.

 

[Triassic]

Yes thanks. I had to swim around 500mt fully clothed in March. The boat was carried by the wind faster than I could swim. It was an oral inflation and, as I mentioned above, very difficult to inflate in choppy water. I was further hampered by the valve blowing out of the inflation tube as I tried to centre the LJ to make thing easier to swim. So virtually all the way I had one hand on the folded tube, so swimming was pretty slow. On getting to the shore, to say I was knackered would be understating it, as I couldn't use my legs for a while. The inflation tube showed no sign of deterioration. Lj went in bin and new manual gas ordered.

Glad you made it OK and able to tell the tale. Playing devils advocate now would you have made it if you hadn't been wearing the lifejacket? It sounds as if you spent a lot of energy and time trying to inflate the thing and it then hampered your ability to swim. If you had not been wearing it would you have been able to firstly, swim fast enough to catch the boat, or secondly reach the shore in half the time?

 

[DownWest]

Glad you made it OK and able to tell the tale. Playing devils advocate now would you have made it if you hadn't been wearing the lifejacket? It sounds as if you spent a lot of energy and time trying to inflate the thing and it then hampered your ability to swim. If you had not been wearing it would you have been able to firstly, swim fast enough to catch the boat, or secondly reach the shore in half the time?

Nope
I did try to catch the boat and only inflated the LJ when I realised it was was not going to happen. Wearing jeans, a sweater and oily top, I was getting waterlogged and mouthfulls of water; I thought of trying to lose my shoes, but gave up on that. When the valve blew out, I knew that what I did in the next few minutes would be critical. Without the LJ's help, I would not have got any where near the shore. I was already in serious trouble.

PRV
This happened in the mid 90s and the LJ was an oldish Beaufort. I checked it each season and it held it's puff.