Lifejacket advice needed

[MainlySteam]

Re: Bigmart and Hardley

Well if I am hit on the head then I will have other problems because I go for non auto inflate lifejackets.

In the September 2003 Yachting World magazine is a very interesting article by a survivor from a race yacht in Australia that lost its keel and capsized. All the 6 crew were trapped under the deck and 4 were lost.

The survivor who wrote the article had other interests associated with safety and so was able to give great detail of how to be prepared for an accident where one ends up in the water. There are several photographs showing the author dressed up in what he thought was the requirement; interestingly that did not include crotch straps - I do not know the reason why he did not though. Also, and my experience is the same, looking at his long jacket I do not see how crotch straps could normally be worn at all tight.

Am not knocking crotch straps at all, everyone to their own and they can probably do no harm. I just think that an inappropriate myth has grown up with respect to their importance and it has become a habit to just say they are necessary. Partly that may come about from I think that most who go for a swim in any lifejacket are surprised by how low one floats in them and our natural seeking of the high ground drives us to want the jacket trussed as low down as is possible.

John

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[Peppermint]

Re: I use

Two auto inflate 150kn XM's with harness & crutch straps. I've used one on the sea survival course and it worked ones about 5 years/12000 miles old and it's in good knick. I recently bought two Ocean Passage Plus 150 kn jackets from Aladdins Cave chandlers and to my mind you'd be hard pressed to find a better spec for your money. They include harness, crutch straps and sprayhood for £69.99 for an auto or £62.99 for a manual.

If the sea survival course teaches you nothing else it does show you the value of a correctly fitting lifejacket with crutch straps and a spray hood,

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[whisper]

Re: Bigmart and Hardley

Yes, I agree that there is probably no absolutely correct piece of kit for all circumstances. I'm sure that an auto jacket can lead to problems if you are trapped down below or even in the cockpit, if you are overturned.
For some reason I wear a manual jacket on our own powerboat yet an auto one with harness when I'm sailing. Not sure of the logic for that choice really.

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[Hardley]

Re: Bigmart and Hardley

Well I seldom go into marina's so would not know what they talk about.
But I have jumped into a test tank, with gas/auto life jacket, straps tightened harder than usual arms crossed over chest to hold jacket down, whilst under water jacket inflated with loud bang, on the surface, jacket rode up and was a struggle to keep down. After that expierance everyone on the course had crotch straps fitted.
Don't take my word for recommending crotch straps, test your jacket, jump overboard and see if your straps keeps your jacket down or around your ears.

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[bigmart]

Re: Bigmart and Hardley

Exactly.

Martin

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[Goldie]

Re: I use

I concur! The Ocean Passage lifejackets are a hard act to beat. We bought ours 18 months or so ago when they were £80 (on offer from £99 I think) at Southampton show. That price included an Aqua-spec light which Aladdins' staff fitted free on request. If you can, I would strongly recommend paying extra (about £18 I think) and get lights fitted as well.

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[bigmart]

Re: The first

Ocean passage lifejackets from Aladdins cave were Velcro fastened but the new ones are Zip stoles. If you read my earlier post you will understand that I am not so impressed with this design. Otherwise I must admit they are some of the best value for money I have seen!

I will still say "Do not consider a jacket without Crutch Straps" I don't care what others have written here. You only have to read the full content of their posts to understand they are spouting rubbish!

Martin

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[MainlySteam]

Re: The first

<<<You only have to read the full content of their posts to understand they are spouting rubbish!>>>

I am afraid that you will find that many who have greater knowledge of the subject than you are likely to have will disagree with that, including, it would seem, the survivor whose article I pointed to.

As I said in one post, it gets down to personal choice, but the total dismissal of the concept of having no crotch straps by the likes of yourself is extremely foolish and clearly describes the limits of your own experience.

John

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Bigmart and Hardley

I agree Whisper.

A few months ago a crewmember of a local yacht was lost when gybing around a mark in a race in the harbour, was knocked unconcious by the boom. Due to the heavy conditions the boat lost contact with him. He was not wearing a lifejacket at all, but an auto inflate one would likely have saved him and a non auto not.

It is a hard decision as to which is best. In my experience, including after accident involvement, I have seen more drownings from entrapment due to auto inflating jackets than drownings from unconcious casualties having non auto inflating ones. I would be interested in any accounts people have of cases of either sort.

John

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[bigmart]

Re: My, you\'re touchy.

I would not normally feel the need to explain myself but, just for you.

It was the comment "Providing you enter the water correctly, (arms crossed on top of the jacket) and have the jacket reasonably fitted, crotch straps are more desirable than essential." that I was thinking of.

Personally, I wear a 275 Newton Self Inflating Lifejacket with Harness & Crotch Straps. I find this is comfortable & causes no loss of movement whether I am wearing full oilies or not.

You will note that I made no comment in the earlier posts regarding Self Inflating Devices. The arguments for & against this could go on forever, without any satisfactory conclusion. I am definitely of the opinion that it is better not to go over the side at all but the concept of ensuring that I will only ever fall, in the water, in a perfect form is quite laughable.

I would agree with the other poster who suggested that, if unsure about the idea of wearing Crotch/Crutch Straps then why not try it out for yourself. When I tried jackets out, in a swimming pool, with ten other testers, we universally agreed that the lack of Crotch/Crutch Straps rendered the lifejackets dangerous. It is also noticable that the organisation I was testing the jackets for uses the straps.

You are, of course, entitled to youre opinion, but I would be very wary about pooh pooing safety equipment when there is no advantage to the wearer in not using it.

Martin

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[MainlySteam]

Re: My, you\'re touchy.

At the risk of boring everyone - please point me to where I have "pooh pooed" crotch straps.

I am sure you will find that I have not - the flavour of my comments has been along the lines that crotch straps are not considered essential by all, and that it should not be claimed that they are necessary as some do. An instance where crotch straps may be of little use or a disadvantage is in the case of wearing heavy weather gear where the skirt of the jacket is long - and in the case of a good heavy weather jacket, face protection on the lifejacket may also likely not be necessary.

I have stated it is a personal choice. That rounds up my view, sorry about your defensiveness over your own purchase choice.

John
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[bigmart]

Re: Like I said

You "are" touchy.

I have already explained that my comments were not even aimed at your post. You will also see that, in my experience, youre comments regarding the wearing of foul weather gear are invalid.

On the contrary I would suggestst that youre defensive posture speaks volumes as to the validity of youre statements.

Martin

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Like I said

What me "touchy"? /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

I am sure if you were to ask any of my marine clients they would just say that when it comes to boats I am very clever, more so than most, and have a powerful literary right hook. I would myself add that I am also, of course, very modest /forums/images/icons/blush.gif.

It is also said that I am well bred as while I will comment on the views of others, I do not dismiss them by publically calling them "rubbish" and nor do I name call in that same arena.

Farewell and enjoy your boating.

John

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[Peppermint]

Re: Crotch straps are essential

Offshore it's the difference between theory and practise.

If your in the drink and you don't mind remaining passive, you could hold your lifejacket down for a short while, then your going to drown. There is much to do in survival situation and you'll be, about as much use as shy girls in skirts on a windy day, hanging on to your jacket. And your arms will tire quite quickly.

Entering the water correctly is a lovely concept. "After you Claude". Not only don't you know how your going in, you don't know how many times your going in.

First entry from boat to water.

Second, third and forth entry could be from failed attempts to enter a liferaft.

Anyone assisting you will grab your lifejacket so there'll be lifting moments there too.

Fifth entry could be when your dropped by rescuers etc. etc.

Crutch straps don't cause much of a problem in use. Yes they can lift the hem of your jacket, it's not a problem.

Crutch straps are not expensive. If you think they are use a sail tie to do the job.

Sprayhoods are just as important. Your lifejacket will hold you facing into the wind.
spray will blow into your face. You can die from this. Saying your well specced jacket will prevent this is wrong. There is an interogation technique where water is poured on a cloth covering the face of the prisoner and he will suffocate. A face full of wet fleece and goretex will have much the same effect. Remember water is inside the body of your jacket up to neck level. The water is surging up and down and more water is entering through the face area. If you have a mask and snorkel on board you don't need a sprayhood but otherwise you do.

Lights are a must too.

All of these things are fairly cheap and can be retrofitted.

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[charles_reed]

And for 30 years

lifejackets have been provided without crotch-straps - now they have become essential.

Forgive me for smiling at your enthusiasm

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Crotch straps are essential

As I asked on the other thread, if crotch straps are so essential on inflatable PFD's (and I do not dispute that some need them) then why all the fuss totally towards demanding them. I would have though such energy should be put into having a go at the manufacturers in order to get them to make PFD's which did not require the complications of a crotch strap (as some do) for donning or for emergency removal of the PFD. No one has responded, apart from one who seems to have misunderstood the question and assumed I was interested in getting some straps /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif.

All the jumping in swimming pools sounds fine - something I have never done. However I have ended up in the sea (which on occasions was much rougher and colder than a swimming pool) a goodly few times in PFD's from small boats but never off a big one. I also have to say I am uncertain of the necessity for face protection, high levels of flotation, etc, etc that some with apparantly quite little yachts probably hardly roaming beyond sheltered waters seem to think are essential.

Talk of "then you are going to drown" if one cannot hold ones lifejacket down is not sensible as almost all rescues have been of casualties not wearing crotch strapped PFD's (almost all, as well as conventional PFD's, are not so fitted). I would never take up the suggestion of using sail ties to substitute for any part of the securing of a PFD, I am aware (in some cases through being associated with the investigation) of some who have lost their lives because they could not easily get their standard secured PFD off even with conventional fastenings. Removal may also be essential to the recovery, especially the self recovery, of a casualty.

In the end it is a personal decision, however, you do a disservice if you narrowly insist to those that seek advice that all PFD's and all persons need crotch straps, especially if that is dramatised by talk of drowning if that advice is not heeded.

John

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[bigmart]

Re: Crotch straps are essential

I think we are starting to distil why there is such a large difference of opinion here. The comments that I & I assume others have made regarding the neccecity of Crutch straps refer only to the self inflating, air only type of PFD. Not all PFD's. I have, in the past jumped into swimming pools wearing the Foam/ air type of PFD & found that these devices are fine without straps.

If you consider the difference between these devices I think the reasons may become apparent. Most of the designs of foam/air Lifejacket, that I know, are bulky & would tend only to be worn if there were a perceived danger, inclement weather, fog or other such problem. This type of device is also fairly near its operating size from the moment of wearing. This means that when fitting the Jacket onto the person there is a large degree of tailoring the final fit to the wearer, resulting in a perfect, or near perfect setup of the device even when inflated.

The more modern, air only jackets are designed to be , & often are, worn all the time & because of this comfort of the wearer will detemine that the fit is not as ideal for use in the water. Also the fit will be affected by the change in the jacket as it inflates. which is much greater in the air only jacket.

Comment was made as to why manufacturers did not supply Crutch straps as standard & I tried to point out that many do. Crewsaver, Ocean Safety & XM all spring to mind.

The reason so many of us argued our corner so vehemently regarding these devices is that the example of deploying into a swimming pool frightened us so much that the idea of being in an ordinary sea, let alone a rough one is quite terrifying.

There is a danger that, as we do with Liferafts, we fit the devices, assume that we are instantly safe & are not aware of the limitations of these items.

I hope this helps!

Martin

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Crotch straps are essential

No, I am referring to inflatable.

In my reference to standard lifejackets I was just emphasising that the claim along the lines of one will drown if you don't have crotch straps is not so as almost all rescues have been with PFD's with no straps whether those were inflatable or not.

John

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[bigmart]

Re: I was once told

that all man overboard incidents of the Ocean Youth Club were in sea conditions of force 3 or less. How true this is I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised. Carelessness is often a killer & a little fear can really concentrate the mind!

Martin

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[MainlySteam]

Re: I was once told

I am pleased to say that I entirely agree with you on that.

It is also said that most drownings are from dinghies or other close to shore activities associated with but not on the yacht itself and also that many are due to panic. I have not seen the figures but I suspect that is correct too. I have personally seen a person go in the water from an upturned sailing dinghy (was not a sailor, just being taken for a ride) and he went into a total panic, rigid and immovable and whimpering, and would have been in severe difficulties if he had ended up in the water somewhere without immediate assistance, so suspect there is some truth in that claim too.

I would also think that we are probably all in agreement that whether one has crotch straps, harness, lifejacket, tether, jackstays or not the first priority is not to go over the side in the first place.

A couple of months ago, in another thread, I posted a summary of drowning statistics in New Zealand. This was based on several decades of records. Over the whole period there were no drownings at all from decked (ie not open) motor vessels and very few from yachts - most directly related to boats were from small open vessels (eg a decked motor vessel had 2 drown from its dinghy in our own sailing area just a couple of weeks ago). For all water sports the vast majority of drownings were from things like swimming, surfing, etc.

The thing that really surprised me, for a country like NZ where many take part in water sports of one type or another, half of all drownings were of people who were not taking part in water sports - such as from car accidents, crossing streams, floods, etc.

Out of that there has been some recommendation here that the primary aim to reduce drownings should be towards having people learn to swim, at least enough to keep afloat. I think there is a lot of merit in that (even though I am not myself a strong swimmer, can just get by) and suspect that most dinghy drownings might be avoided if the casualties had at least basic swimming ability (putting aside situations of low water temperature, drunkeness, etc where other precasutions are appropriate).

John

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