Lifeboat speed in harbour...no respect to fellow mariners!

[copterdoctor]

[ QUOTE ]
Paul,

What was the nature of the shout they had been tasked to? Was time of the essence?


The question should not be was time of the essence but was it worth risking more lives for. If the lifeboat had hit some thing time would have been irrelevant unless you are going to leave the new casualty to get to the first.

 

[DRW]

[ QUOTE ]
Think that may be a case of sticking your nose in other people's buisness!! If you had read the original post correctly you would notice that operations at Poole say they investigated the case and there was no case to answer...fini..!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here I completely disagree with you. 'Your business' has become the subject of public discussion by your posting it here. You have openly accused and libelled the cox of the Troon lifeboat, and so he should have the right to reply. You obviously do not accept the RNLI investigation outcome, that there was no case to answer, and so it is not 'fini'.

As for the harbourmaster, there have been some good suggestions made and perhaps they would be of interest to him in promoting safety within his harbour.

Is there any specific reason why you would not want them to read your post? It is after all open to anyone to read.

Again, regards, David.

 

[Guest]

12 knots is a lot !!

My boat at full chat will push 9 knots and boy is that a wake !! At 5 knots I still have to slow down to stop rocking boats as I pass and I'm only a 25ft motor-sailer ....

A Trent at 12 is going to move a lot of water ............ it also looks fast in a confined space ........... bit like watching a car at 30mph down a windy narrow country lane ... looks much faster than really is ...

I'm actually surprised at a HM agreeing such a speed if the hbr is so confined ...

??????????

 

[cliff]

There is no need for such behavour. The time saving between 5kts and 25kts departing the harbour will only be around 25 seconds or there abouts - NOT worth the risk of causing another accident to save the 25 seconds, if even that.

I am afraid it smacks of the "gung-ho" attitude demonstrated by many these days.
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“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo

 

[Rob_Webb]

As a lifeboatman/coastguard myself I agree that one needs to take a balanced view when responding to a callout but the more urgent the nature of the incident the more emphasis is placed on best speed.

Recently I had just slipped the berth at Gulf Harbour in Rescue 1 (9m RIB, sister ship pictured below) and almost immediately was tasked by Ops to respond to an "urgent" call (and not all calls are labelled "urgent") - turned out that we had to rescue 3 fishermen who were stranded on dangerous rocks with a rising tide and 2m swell, a borderline helicopter case but we managed to get them off with the boat with about 5 mins to spare, a whole other story in itself - anyway, we were still in the middle of the marina with about 300m to run to the exit. Ops could see me on their screens and from our transponder could see I had only accelerated to about 7kts, they called back to verify we had understood grave urgency of situation and need to make "best speed". So, we double-checked the area, on went the blue strobe lights and I accelerated up to full speed, exiting the marina at 40kts. We got to the area in about 8 mins. Of course at that speed our wash was relatively minor and risk of collision is the biggest concern. But we took a calculated decision based on conditions and urgency to accelerate to full speed earlier than usual.

But if the fairway had been full of traffic I would have held back for longer. And for all non-urgent tasks we obey the speed and wash rules like anyone, in fact probably more so. Cos amongst other things we also recognise the value of good PR.

 

[Taurus_Skipper]

[ QUOTE ]
What ever it was was a false alarm as the lifeboat returned within a few minutes. All I ask is what is to be gained by proceeding the 400metres to the harbour entrance at a ridiculous speed rather than a sensible speed. There is every chance of causing more damage and hurt in that distance than the benefit gained by arriving at the job a micro second sooner.

[/ QUOTE ]


And as your time as second cox , did you ever race to the boat house in your car with FULL MAIN BEAM HEADLIGHTS, trying to get thier quicker than Jensen button ?

 

[starboard]

As a final twist to all of this, this afternoon I was phoned at home by the Harbourmaster, he advised me this post had been brought to his attention and was unhappy that he had been quoted as saying the Lifeboat was "only" at half speed as he indeed denied he even said that!!!. When I told him that was the response I recieved from Chief of Operations at Poole he seemed a little flusterd. I subsequntly sent him all the relevant emails and asked him to take it up with Poole.....I therefore wonder who then fabricated that piece of information???

As a footnote I would not like this incident to detract from the very good work the dedicated crews of the RNLI do...unfortuenately it is an incident like this that can sometimes wrongly tar the good work of many.

I was proud of the time and effort I gave the service and still today feel proud to watch the lifeboats performing thier tasks....hopefully in a seaman like manner.

Paul.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Where you went wrong in your post, in my opinion, and possibly went wrong with your complaint, is that you made a claim that was clearly very unlikely to have been correct.

If I was investigating the incident (and I have done so for more than a few) and I was faced with someone telling me that a 45 foot boat went by at 25 knots producing a 3m wake, and I had to balance that against the crew complained against saying that was not so, I would have to believe the crew and not you. What they are saying is possible, and what you are saying is very likely impossible.

Now others may come forward and also make a complaint, but providing no exaggeration on their part, then they would tend to be listened to, but you would remain as an unreliable witness.

Not intending to be mean in saying that, as I think you will find that is how it works. I see you work in "Air Traffic" - if that is in air traffic management, and you have been involved in investigating incidents, I suspect you will see the point I am making.

John

 

[bumblefish]

Dear Cutter, as I am sure you are quite aware, after your recent experience, one of the golden rules of 'incident' management is to ensure one does not add to the casualty list, including oneself. However, I suggest that it is not just about the 'moored vessel' with the G&T but also the tenders and smaller vessels afloat who could suffer as a result of an excessively speedy departure of an RNLI vessel. I am sure you are all too familiar with the 'blue light fanatics' in the emergency services. Furthermore, there have been recent reports of deaths within the confines of a harbour, including harbour masters, where small vessels were involved. It would not help the potential victim at sea if the lifeboat was obliged to deal with an incident of their own making and therefore failed to arrive at the scene of an offshore event. Personally I would rather lose my own vessel/life than survive at the expense of anothers.

 

[Sailfree]

[ QUOTE ]
. Personally I would rather lose my own vessel/life than survive at the expense of anothers.

[/ QUOTE ]

How nice of you, what happened to the survival instict that has ensured the continuance of the human race, if you have really lost it for a higher moral belief are we all going to die out soon?

 

[davidfox]

What you are saying comes down to judgement, based on experience and listening to both sides of a story. both sides of a story will be biased towards the teller that is human nature, that is where experience comes in. Hopefully the RNLI at Poole will understand that a potentially dangerous situation occured and will take steps to make sure that everyone involved is made aware of the concerns. banging on about 3m swells and 25knots is not the point.

 

[ValleyForge]

I have sailed in and out of Troon, albeit a good long time ago, it is a bit confined I recall. I must admit that if I was tied up or alongside I would be a bit annoyed at being thown around, however I must also admit my first reaction would be 'Wow, look at him go, hope he gets there in time'. Aren't these things just part & parcel of this boating lark, after all, those guys are prepared to risk life & limb. Or are we all getting a bit soft ?
PS If you ever moor a yacht in the outer harbour of Rothesay beware the wash from the Jupiter car ferry as it lands - I have seen many a brace of yachts crack their masts together - But you wouldn't tell the ferry to stop it would you ? (or would you ?)

 

[KevB]

I guess that because it's a mobo give you cause to complain. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

An ambulance answereing a call puts many people in danger but this has to be weighed up against the advantages of them getting to their destination fast.

Some people need to wake up and see that these people are about saving lives, maybe yours one day and not out on the water having a bit of fun. Wise up.

 

[cliff]

IMHO you are in no position to pass judgment or even infer that Starboard is exaggerating the height of the stern wash. Some of us are berth holders in Troon and are very aware of the layout of the harbour.
I personally have witnessed 6'+ wakes thrown up by modestly sized mobos (modest in comparison to the Trent class Life Boat) leaving the harbour. This is easily seen by looking at the height of the wet mark on the dolphin wall after the wake has passed and the surface of the water returns to normal. It is easy to read off the height from the depth markers fixed to the harbour wall.

As any boat runs towards the harbour mouth the wake becomes confined and rises higher than it would in the open water. If this is difficult to understand then consider the "Severn Bore" - as the channel gets narrower the wave height increases.

As the entrance to Troon harbour is in a "corner" and the life boat leaves from the opposite side of the outer harbour it should be evident that same principal would apply with the old seacat berth and the old breakers wall acting like the sides of a channel or funnel resulting in extraordinarily high washes at the harbour mouth.

One problem when one has a complaint about any organization such as the RNLI is as soon as they realise they are guilty they close ranks on you and your get nowhere.

I believe the harbour master has already contacted Paul and stated he did not say the LB was only doing 12knts so who is lying? RNLI Poole, Troon HM, Paul? - My money is on Poole and or the coxswain.

Paul, While I remember, I tend to drop my sails well out and motor in rather than start faffin about at the harbour mouth or I sail right into the outer harbour then faf about getting the sails away - either way I am not faffin around at the harbour mouth where some ijit in a mobo or LB can cause me grief.

Plan "b" Keep a couple of red parachute flares in the cockpit and next time it happens throw SHMO over board and fire off the rockets (MoB) and have the "gentleman of doubtful parentage" come back and pick SHMO up.

Plan "c" Next time it happens, whack SHMO over the head with something then call for an ambulance to take her to the hospital for stitches etc then sue the RNLI for damages, physical and mental pain and anguish etc etc - She fell down the companion way when the nasty LB went roaring out of the harbour without any warning etc, etc.
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“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo

 

[cliff]

[ QUOTE ]
PS If you ever moor a yacht in the outer harbour of Rothesay beware the wash from the Jupiter car ferry as it lands - I have seen many a brace of yachts crack their masts together - But you wouldn't tell the ferry to stop it would you ? (or would you ?)

[/ QUOTE ]No, I wouldn't tell the ferry to stop it but there again I am not daft enough to moor in the outer harbour - there are plenty of places to drop the hook nearby and be out of the way of the ferry.

The difference in Troon is we HAVE to negotiate the entrance and outer harbour to get to and from our berths - we have no choice in the matter.
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“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo

 

[cliff]

"Saving lives" towing in MoBos with engine failure more likely. Besides that, even if it is a genuine "saving life" call out there is no excuse for the situation Starboard described. If they want to run full throttle when clear of the harbour confines then fine but NOT inside the harbour. To save one life while putting other innocent boaters in danger is totally unacceptable behavior. Not only that but if the LB was to hit a boat entering the harbour mouth (which is narrow and a PITA if approaching from the west) then you have a real situation on your hands - casualties at the harbour and no life boat to attend the call out.

I feel all Starboard is asking for is a little bit of common sense and decorum when entering or leaving the harbour.

I do not think anyone is even suggesting the RNLI do anything less than provide a first class service, even more commendable when one considers it is a charity and not a govt. (funded) department, however a little more thought and consideration to others and the local conditions might just be in order.
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“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo

 

[davidfox]

Well said

 

[l'escargot]

I agree with Cliff, it sounds like the equivalent of a police car going through a red light. Response to emergencies must be done safely, it is counter productive to put others at risk when doing so. The RNLI do a great job but they can't be put above justifiable criticism.

 

[starboard]

Its been interesting to see the responses, thanks to you guys that seem to understand the problem, there will always be a variety of views regarding a subject like this. To have had as of now 1330 viewings shows the interest generated, I can only hope the powers to be at Poole can take on board some of the comments, lets also hope that the message may get back to those concerned at troon in the hope that in the future no ones safety will be compromised.

 

[Birdseye]

Police drivers are taught the danger of "red mist" when called to drive / ride quickly, yet every year we have something like 30 fatalities from police persuit driving. This is despite intensive training, and the problem seems to be the natural human excitement, loss of judgement when faced with a challenging situation.

I see no reason why exactly the same problem should not apply with the RNLI. Not saying that it did in this case - I dont know one way or the other. But I for one would quite understand a slightly gung ho response to the adrenalin generated.

Some of the responses here seem to imply that it is beyond the pale to criticise the RNLI in any way because of the job they do. I dont agree.