Life raft v Epirb

Let's not get personal here.

Yes, I feel strongly about the need to carry a liferaft. For coastal cruising, as this is what the OP mainly does, a good serviceable liferaft can be bought for a couple of hundred.
Taking chances with your, and your crew's safety, for want of a couple of hundred is IMO criminal.
It also shows a certain sense of responsibility - you're willing to do your bit, instead of relying solely on others to be rescued.

I have first hand experience of how an MRCC works - procedures, responses, follow-up, ...
I would not presume to lecture, if I did not know what I was talking about.
 
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I can't believe a discussion has arisen about whether to have a liferaft or an EPIRB... they are completely different items of safety equipment doing different things and to be used for different purposes. A trade of between the two based upon budget leads me to suggest that some quiet time for reflection on what is important namely the safety of your crew may be needed.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree entirely with Snowgoose.... for some of us, just keeping the boat on the water is enough of a financial challenge...... and I do think about these things.... and decide, that someone like Guapa, who does this for a living, probably has some insight on the effectiveness or otherwise of an EPIRB...... and thus decide that for the type of coastal and short nth sea hops we do, its less important than many other things on board....
 
I don't expect "instant rescue".
A mayday will alert the CG and the PLB signal will confirm my position.
"it can be an hour or so before the shout is called."
And another hour or two for anything to arrive on the scene.
"Quite long enough to drown, or die of hypothermia." assuming that I am floating around in the water!
 
A marmite question if I ever heard one. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Liferaft for me.

My reasoning is that an Epirb will not keep me afloat in a worse case scenario, which is what these two are designed for.

If you ever hear radio transmissions in gales, the rescue services have multiple targets, and therefore somebody will have to wait a turn, the life raft allows for this.

Depending on your sailing, you may nearly always be in mobile phone range, so you have a ship to shore comms method that is independent of the main battery, and of course you have your radio(s).

Before anyone comes up with examples where an Epirb is better (e.g. Tony Bullimore) I can only say that ideally both would be useful, but a coastal sailing area means I am happy that I have redundancy in the comms department.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Let's not get personal here.

Yes, I feel strongly about the need to carry a liferaft. For coastal cruising, as this is what the OP mainly does, a good serviceable liferaft can be bought for a couple of hundred.
Taking chances with your, and your crew's safety, for want of a couple of hundred is IMO criminal.
It also shows a certain sense of responsibility - you're willing to do your bit, instead of relying solely on others to be rescued.

I have first hand experience of how an MRCC works - procedures, responses, follow-up, ...
I would not presume to lecture, if I did not know what I was talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I apologize for the rant.

But not for this one .

What I, and perhaps many others here do not want to have, is people waving their fingers and TELLING US WHAT TO DO WITH OUR LIVES. I feel that it is a lesson you and others can never seem to learn. You just drive people away. As an expert, why can't you just explain the benefits or otherwise of safety equipment without calling people criminals for not doing what you say. It's all the questioner wanted.

It also explains why Scuttlebutt is only a shadow of what it once was. I have much sympathy for example with Lake Sailor on a recent thread concerning Bluebird where he held a different view to others but in no way was he overbearing or telling others what to think. Trying to defend a point of view , without lecturing or aggressive responses , has almost become impossible. If it's not the finger waggers it's people like Crusty who only seem to want to wreck the system.

These people have effectively made it impossible for the free exchange of information that once existed here. Much appreciation to Morgana for his support.
 
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I don't expect "instant rescue".
A mayday will alert the CG and the PLB signal will confirm my position.
"it can be an hour or so before the shout is called."
And another hour or two for anything to arrive on the scene.
"Quite long enough to drown, or die of hypothermia." assuming that I am floating around in the water!

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting that recent fatalities here on the East Coast have been away from the mother ship in tenders or falling into marina's. I would expect people having to deploy a liferaft is very low. I believe the yacht which lost it's keel near the IOW only managed to inform the authorities via mobile phone because it happened so quickly.

One downside to some of the personal Epirbs is that they are waterproof but don't float . Tied inside a lifejacket seems a good idea.
 
Thanks for the input everybody.

As background I have been sailing coastal and offshore for 35yrs, and in that time have lugged about liferafts of various sizes and colours.

In that time I have never had to deploy it, no sailor of my acquaintance has launched one either, and am not aware of any "in anger" deployments in UK coastal in the last ten years. (Hazy memory of an Irishman in a Seago but can't remember where he was).

I have been involved in situations where flares and various forms of voice comm have been used and would consider an EPIRB to be an extension of these.

I had worked out on my own that the two objects have different functions.

If I wasn't such an easygoing sort of guy I would be mortally offended by being accused of criminal negligence and other gross calumny.

But the sad fact of life is that the money pot is finite and decisions like this will have to be made.

I aspire to Fullcircles attitude to safety where his boat is sensibly and comprehensively equipped with loads of overlap and redundancy.

Anyway enough idle chit chat.

The decision is;

A life raft (with HH VHF and phone in grab bag.)

The EPIRB will have to wait till next year.
 
How long ago was it that people were sailing without either, without a care in the world? I would be quite happy without either unless short handed or beyond 100 miles from aviation fuel.
 
[ QUOTE ]

What I, and perhaps many others here do not want to have, is people waving their fingers and TELLING US WHAT TO DO WITH OUR LIVES.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could not agree more with you. Many on here are no better than the H & S people that so many criticise for stopping boys playing conkers!

How we lead our lives should be our responsibility and the arrogance of some to dictate to others what they must do without any consideration to the financial constraints that many have to consider and live with to continue to experience their love of sailing really disappoints me.

The fact that the poster asked the question shows that he is sensible, he appreciates the risks and is merely trying to get other more experienced opinions to assist his decision.

The poster did not ask to be preached to or dictated to. I saw no reference to crew to consider.

I am in the fortunate position of having 2 EPIRBS (boat & personal)and 2 liferafts (4man +8 man) but may I point out to the clever cloggs on here that while EPIRB's are getting cheaper they are still not a requirement by the MCA for charter coded boats that regularly cross the channel.

A liferaft plus VHF would be my first choice. I would even put a handheld VHF as more important than a fixed. While the MCA require a handheld VHF it does not have to be waterproof but for the small extra cost I believe a waterproof one is far better.

If I was on a limited budget I would start with :-
Waterproof handheld VHF, Flares, lifejacket, decent waterproofs , waterproof torch and liferaft.

I include waterproofs as they are so important to enable good safe decision making to be warm & dry as that may prevent any of the other safety equipment ever being needed.

Come on guys lets all feel free to offer our advice and opinions but remember that many have to make hard decisions due to certain constraints so lets have some tolerance and remember that even we we can be wrong in our opinions.

Rant over
 
There was a crew bobbing about for a couple of days in their raft off cornwall a couple of years back, they may have been off a trawler IIRC. In sight of land and nothing they could do about it.

that is all I can remember and can't think of any others, oh yes, the fog-radar-assisted collision with the ??moody?? in the TSS 5 years back?? didn't they bail into the raft?

I give you the fact, it is rare though.
 
Colmce
I'm not sure if this is a troll or genuine!!!

Safety equipment should be matched against the areas that you intend to sail in.

I presume that your boat has a working VHF and you may even have a mobile phone. So if you intend to bugger around the southern North Sea and Dover Straights I would go for a life raft every time because you can summon assistance via VHF or Mobile (not recommended) and jump into the raft if push comes to shove.

Why not consider something like a PLB or "grab bag" with a handheld VHF that doesn't mind getting wet ~ Standard Horizon HX 270E circa 80 squids?

If you want a helicopter hovering overhead then a quick call on the VHF to the CG stating "we're all doomed" and operating a PLB (Marshall circa 100 squids) will have the desired effect.

If however you intend to be sailing well offshore then you need to ask yourself some questions?

I.e. if I find myself in the SH 1 T what do I need to stay alive?

You work it out or as the yanks would say "go figure".

Peter.

PS.
These type of questions annoy me because everybody seems to think that there is some type of "magic" formula as an answer, when what you really need to ask yourself is " if I'm out there and in the S H 1 T" what do I need to do or what safety equipment do I carry to save not only my life, but the lives of my crew"?
 
Genuine, not a troll.

With little alarums and diversions this post is what the forum is for.

I had a problem, to which I thought I had the answer. Various people lobbed in some ideas and expertise.

I now had a new answer which on reflection is probably the best one.

Job done!

Thanks all.

Boat minder, boat will be based round the corner from you, you will be welcome to inspect my shiny new raft and grab bag over a cuppa or glass.
 
my 2p worth,i sail single handed and have no eburb or life raft ,saving up for new main first,but if had crew on board i think i would have to reconsider,but back to the question...first i would get would be a personal epurb and keep it in my jacket pocket,mind you i have got an old dry suit i can climb in to,
 
Never thought about it before, although we bought a life raft last year. Hopefully, if we ever had to deploy it we would have managed to get a call off from the fixed radio, if not we have a waterproof handheld as back up. I think we will stay like this for what we plan to do for a few years (all coastal) and get an epirb just before going off shore.
 
My thoughts were similar but did it the other way round, bought a PLB first as the price had come down and the battery is user replaceable. Liferaft is more expensive and service life is quite short and has to be done professionally.
I sailed for 30+ yrs with neither but I am now working up to heading off and living aboard for a few years, so slowly equipping with all the things I hope never to use.
 
The answer is in the MAIB acccident reports. Go through the last 15 years reports and if you can identify yourself ever being in the position of using a liferaft in the barely double figure incidents when liferaft have been deployed or might have been (with only just above 50% chance of success) then buy a liferaft.

If on the other hand read all the other reports, but not in the same level of detail of yachts that have got into trouble and been "rescued" using such things as VHF, EPIRB, flares, mobile phones etc to attract attention you may not want to "waste" your money on a liferaft!

Only 3 reasons for yachts foundering and potentially needing to use a liferaft, and each of them in low single figures. Structural failure (mostly badly designed racing yachts), Collisions ( mostly not fully explained) and extreme weather (when all sensible yotties are tucked up in bed).

No catching fire; no hitting submerged containers (at least reliably recorded); no holing and sinking and all the other horror stories that do the rounds of the yacht club bars!

So make your decision based on a rational assessment of the evidence, not on imagination of what "might happen"!
 
Not replying to anyone in particular, but the focus of much of the thread seems to be that EPIRB and liferaft serve two different purposes (true) but the assumption is they will be used in the same circumstances i.e. boat foundering (not necessarily true).
I have been thinking a lot recently about the kind of sailing I intend to do in the next few years, running scenarios through my mind and trying to figure out how I would deal with them. I have identified a number of situations in which a liferaft would be of no use, but an EPIRB could be a life saver.
Having said that, if I needed to make a choice, for coastal sailing and occasional cross-channel hops, I would opt for easily accessable liferaft plus waterproof (or bagged)
VHF. I think the "easily accessable" part is important, because I suspect that, although the chance of needing to jump into the LR is probably low, my impression is that, if it happens, the need will arise quickly. E.g. sudden structural failure, being run down. In almost any other situation there will be time (in coastal sailing) to raise the alarm through the ship's VHF, mobile, flares etc. and every chance of being rescued before the boat sinks.
 
There are less than 20 reported cases of a liferaft either being used or could/should have been used in UK and Irish waters or involving a UK yacht over the last 15 years. All the reports are on the MAIB or Irish MCIB sites.

In my view these should be compulsory reading for Yotties who go on passage.
 
Good, well reasoned argument Tranona.
However, there is the psychological element when dealing with Her Indoors. My wife likes to see a big white canister with the word LIFERAFT writtten on it. She is thus reassured that if we founder, there is a device to step into.

My good lady has seen Titanic, and is pretty sure that EPIRBs didn't figure highly, worse in fact than an upturned dining table. Nope, she wants a LIFERAFT.

The grab bag is her next favourite. That has been an endeavour of love, and we have collected the bits for it over time. Jolly smart heliograph, amongst other things.

For the benefit of the good readers, we also have an EPIRB. But given the choice, I would still have the placebo nailed to the cradle on the transom.
 
I am sure that is true. It would be interesting to know the number of cases over the same time in which an EPIRB was used / could should have been used when other forms of raising alarm (VHF, mobile, flares) were not / would not have been effective.
The OP seems to have the basic means of summoning help in a coastal situation, and now has the means to supplement his safety gear. So the question is - what is the next piece of kit for coastal sailing? I think for me it would be LR before EPIRB (if those were the two choices on the table), but personally I think I would feel quite comfortable sailing without either, even across the Channel.
 
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