??? Life Post Brexit Something For Insomniacs To Get Their Teeth Into❓

[nortada]

Whilst doing a bit of digging, I came across this.



The point that caught my eye was the statement , 'If you leave Portugal for more than 6 months your temporary residency is invalidated and you will have to reapply on return.

New to me and not my experience, as circumstances forced us to remain in the UK from 1 Mar 2019 to 22 Oct 2019 (nearly 8 months) but our residencia is still valid.

Will this all change post Brexit?

What does the panel think?

 

[nortada]

???And more of the same, from the same source, somewhere in Portugal. Wonder if they are a member of the YBW Forum




Thoughts on a virtual €50 note, please✔

 

[nortada]

And now a word or two from our sponsor, in the know:-

General election: a message from the British Ambassador to UK nationals in Portugal .

As you will know, last Thursday’s general election in the UK produced a clear Conservative majority in the House of Commons. This was a significant moment in the Brexit process.

The Conservative Party manifesto set out a clear commitment to implement the Withdrawal Agreement negotiated in October and leave the European Union on 31 January 2020. Under the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement, we will then enter a transition period lasting until the end of 2020, during which the UK, while formally outside the EU, will remain within the EU single market and customs union. Your existing rights to move freely within the EU and live in any member state will continue during this period. By the end of the transition period the UK will aim to have agreed the details of our permanent future relationship with the European Union.

The important point for British nationals legally resident in Portugal is that your Portuguese residence and other important rights (and the rights of Portuguese nationals legally resident in the UK) will be protected after the end of the transition period under the Withdrawal Agreement, an international treaty between the UK and the European Union. This includes your rights to work or study in Portugal, as well as your access to healthcare, benefits and education. Once again I would urge all British nationals resident in Portugal to follow the advice on the Living in Portugal guide – and in particular to ensure that you and your families are legally registered as resident with the Portuguese authorities. We recommend taking this simple step now, if you have not already done so.

Some questions, such as the future recognition of professional qualifications or the right to move to other EU countries after Brexit, do not form part of the Withdrawal Agreement. I know these issues are important to many British people in Portugal. These will be discussed as part of negotiations on our future relationship which will take place during the transition period.

I would also like to take this opportunity to wish you all a very happy festive season. My team and I look forward to being in touch with and meeting many of you in the New Year.

Chris Sainty

British Ambassador to Portugal

Is he The Queen's man or Boris'?

 

[Tony Cross]

From my experience as a resident in Greece....

EU citizens living in another EU member state for more than 90 days have always been required to register in their state of residence, many states (Greece included) don't bother with this normally, but UK citizens should ensure they are registered in the country of residence before the end of the transition period. In Greece (and elsewhere I think) once you have been registered for five years you can convert your registration status into permanent (EU) residence. The difference I believe is the length of time you are allowed to be out of the country without losing your status.

Neither of these is actual residence in the same way that non-EU nationals have residence status. They are simply an EU process that documents where EU citizens are residing. Greece has already said that at the end of the transition period those holding permanent residence (EU) documents will have those converted automatically into non-EU residence permits. I believe those holding registration documents will receive some sort of temporary residence permit which will become a proper permanent residence permit after 5 years.

 

[nortada]

From my experience as a resident in Greece....

EU citizens living in another EU member state for more than 90 days have always been required to register in their state of residence, many states (Greece included) don't bother with this normally, but UK citizens should ensure they are registered in the country of residence before the end of the transition period. In Greece (and elsewhere I think) once you have been registered for five years you can convert your registration status into permanent (EU) residence. The difference I believe is the length of time you are allowed to be out of the country without losing your status.

Neither of these is actual residence in the same way that non-EU nationals have residence status. They are simply an EU process that documents where EU citizens are residing. Greece has already said that at the end of the transition period those holding permanent residence (EU) documents will have those converted automatically into non-EU residence permits. I believe those holding registration documents will receive some sort of temporary residence permit which will become a proper permanent residence permit after 5 years.

Very much my understanding.

In Portugal temporary residents already hold a CERTIFICADOS DE REGISTRATO DE CIDADÃOS DA UNIÃO EUROPEIA issued by THE REPUBLICA PORTUGUESA and I am unaware of any plan to change/upgrade this document post Brexit. A lot of expensive effort to no advantage so why would Potugal bother?

Possibly, I should I explain, I started the thread with the 3 quotes as a focus for further discussions.

Although, I believe the author is a berth holder in Lagos Marina, I do not know who they are but would be very interested to hear more of their research. Hence, my first line in#2.

On reflection, I have deleted my prerogative comments and apologize if they caused any offense. This kirk is big enough for shades of opinion.

Group knowledge usually eclipses that of an individual - and all of that.

 

[Graham376]

Greece has already said that at the end of the transition period those holding permanent residence (EU) documents will have those converted automatically into non-EU residence permits.

I wondered about this point, as my permanent residence card state on the front "Citizen of the European Union". Not had any communication so far from Portuguese SEF (immigration dept) regarding this.

 

[Graham376]

???And more of the same, from the same source, somewhere in Portugal. Wonder if they are a member of the YBW Forum


View attachment 83280

Thoughts on a virtual €50 note, please✔

Paragraph 2 above is quite straight forward but still leaves one question unanswered - how do they know we have arrived in Portugal overland or by water from (say) Spain, to stop the clock? Will we have to go to immigration or police to have passports stamped on entry & exit?

 

[nortada]

Paragraph 2 above is quite straight forward but still leaves one question unanswered - how do they know we have arrived in Portugal overland or by water from (say) Spain, to stop the clock? Will we have to go to immigration or police to have passports stamped on entry & exit?

Be interesting when we are over at Ayamonte, like many who live, close by the River Guadiana, we frequently cross back and for between Ayamonte and Vila Real, by road bridge or foot/car ferry. If we are driving, it will be a Portuguese/Spanish Car so not easy to identify the status of the driver/passengers. Some times make the crossing more than once a day!

Could be especially interesting during the summer holiday months.

Oh yes, the passport will quickly fill up wit Exit/Entry stamps.

 

[Graham376]

Be interesting when we are over at Ayamonte, like many who live, close by the River Guadiana, we frequently cross back and for between Ayamonte and Vila Real, by road bridge or foot/car ferry. If we are driving, it will be a Portuguese/Spanish Car so not easy to identify the status of the driver/passengers. Some times make the crossing more than once a day!

Could be especially interesting during the summer holiday months.

Oh yes, the passport will quickly fill up wit Exit/Entry stamps.

Fun indeed, we can cross from Portugal to Spain several times each day by dinghy when anchored in the river. I've just sent an enquiry to UK Embassy in Lisbon, asking how will we prove we're in country of residence to stop the 90 day clock.

 

[Graham376]

Well, I've had a reply from the Embassy to my question about how we will prove we've arrived in our country of residence, to stop the clock in the rest of Schengen. This of course applies to all States. The reply isn't quite what I was expecting, useless tw**s -

British Embassies are unable to advise British nationals on immigration rules or visa eligibility in foreign countries. This is the responsibility of the local immigration authorities who are setting and enforcing the entry and residency rules

 

[srm]

This link may be of interest to those in Portugal, click on "Brexit Flyer" if you have not already seen it.
Brexit – The Official Website of Portuguese Immigration

It seems that Portugal is more friendly to UK citizens than some other EU countries. I recently converted my 5 year EU residence certificate into a 10 year permanent residence card. Cost 15 euro plus 3.5 euro postage for delivery of the card. I had to visit the local SEF office and provide some documents to demonstrate that I was in fact resident, but it was relatively painless.

 

[nortada]

This link may be of interest to those in Portugal, click on "Brexit Flyer" if you have not already seen it.
Brexit – The Official Website of Portuguese Immigration

It seems that Portugal is more friendly to UK citizens than some other EU countries. I recently converted my 5 year EU residence certificate into a 10 year permanent residence card. Cost 15 euro plus 3.5 euro postage for delivery of the card. I had to visit the local SEF office and provide some documents to demonstrate that I was in fact resident, but it was relatively painless.

Thanks for this.

Currently a 5 year temporary resident, looking to the future, what extra documents did you have to provide to prove you were resident?

 

[srm]

PM for reply

 

[Graham376]

Looking at list above, I had no need to produce Portuguese tax returns as we are UK tax payers and don't do returns in Portugal. Did have to produce property ownership documents. I took bank and pension statements with me but she didn't even glance at them. Painless exercise, except for waiting a couple of months for an appointment as Lisbon SEF is very busy. May have gone easy on me as my wife (who did most of the talking) is a citizen.

edit- Seems srm has deleted the list of documents he had to produce.

 

[nortada]

PM for reply

PM sent

 

[srm]

OK, Have been asked to publish my reply to Nortada. so here it is.

From memory:
5 year EU residence certificate.
Passport.
Confirmation of current residence address and start date - 'Atestado' from Freguesia.
Portuguese fiscal number.
Proof that I was retired and income - annual statements from UK pension providers.
Portuguese annual tax returns (I only had 3 years but this was accepted without question).
Health insurance or Portuguese social security card and health service number.

Regarding the tax comment by 'Graham376' they only wanted to see that I had submitted tax declarations, there was no interest in whether I actually had to pay income tax in Portugal.

Note : Address required confirmation that I lived there hence the Atestado, as registration papers for a property was not regarded as the same as residence.

However, someone else (EU citizen) living on their boat for part of each year applied for a permanent residence certificate after 5 years and was rejected as he could not prove residence - I did not ask for full details as to why. SEF told him to apply for another 5 year certificate from the Camara (city hall) but they said they could not issue a second one. He has since disapeared for the winter, as is usual, so do not know how it was resolved.

I am aware, from various conversations, that non-EU citizens have to meet somewhat different conditions, and that requirements may be different again for the spouses of EU or Portuguese citizens.

Hope this helps, but for difinitive advice ask at your local SEF office . The people at my local office have always been helpful with advice as to what is required when I walked in without an appointment.

 

[Graham376]

Hope this helps, but for difinitive advice ask at your local SEF office .

I'm sure it will help some. People should bear in mind though that some officials are very easy going, requiring little detailed information and some can be a real PITA. All seem to have their own interpretation of the rules, as is the case with all officialdom there.

As an example, differences to srm above, we were told by the tax office not to bother filing returns as no income there. Apartment documents were acceptable as our names listed as owners, not asked for Atestado which is for a different address anyway as we needed a parking permit for s-i-l's address. I don't have a Social Security card but am registered at local Centro de Saude (health centre).

SRM - is you residence card a fold-over 3 page card one like mine? I heard they're being replaced with citizen type plastic I.D cards.

 

[greeny]

Got my my permanent residence in October.
Went to make an appointment at SEF in Portimao but the lady just said sit down and we'll do it now.
All i needed to show was my 5 yr certificate that was expiring soon, my passport and nothing else was asked for. (I hadn't taken anything else because i wasn't expecting to do it there and then.)
My photo was taken and I was told my residence would be sent to me within 2 months. I think it actually took 6 weeks to arrive. Its a plastic card with my fiscal number and my health system number also printed on it along with my picture. Don't need to carry my passport all the time now.
Around the same time my wife applied to register residence for her first 5 yr certificate at Lagoa camera. Again very easy and quick, all done in 20 mins (after a 2 hour wait). Had to go back the next day to pickup the certificate as the person who has to sign it was off that afternoon.
Easy-peasy all round.
It seems they've got their act together for the Brits.

 

[Graham376]

My photo was taken and I was told my residence would be sent to me within 2 months. I think it actually took 6 weeks to arrive. Its a plastic card with my fiscal number and my health system number also printed on it along with my picture. Don't need to carry my passport all the time now.

You had a very easy ride there Is the card valid as ID for travel in Schengen? Would be handy if it is rather showing a UK passport and questions about the 90 day limit. By the way, Portuguese accept a photocopy of passport as I.D. folks don't need to carry original.

 

[greeny]

As its an ID card I would think its acceptable for travel within Schengen. My German daughter in law uses hers all the time and never her passport.
As for using a passport photocopy for ID, I used to do just, that but was reprimanded on two separate occasions by the police at road blocks who said they were not acceptable so I went back to carrying the passport. They didn't pursue the issue but left me in no doubt that I was not compliant. Like many things in Portugal it depends on the individual you are talking to, as to what and what isn't acceptable.
Next time i fly to Germany from here I'll try the ID card at the airports and see if they go through ok. Should be going in the next month or so and I'll post the outcome on here.