Leopard 4.5 Vs Bali 4.6

[Roey]

From those two boats,
Leopard 4.5 &Bali 4.6
which one will you recommend to a couple of newbies that are looking to change their lives,
planning on full live-aboard and travel the world.
If you have any information regarding performance of those two vessels, please add a comment.
If you think one is better than the other for Bluewater crossing, please sound your voice.
If you know anything about ease of maintenance and liability, we would love to hear from you.
Appreciate knowledge that you can share.
Thank you!

 

[geem]

From those two boats,
Leopard 4.5 &Bali 4.6
which one will you recommend to a couple of newbies that are looking to change their lives,
planning on full live-aboard and travel the world.
If you have any information regarding performance of those two vessels, please add a comment.
If you think one is better than the other for Bluewater crossing, please sound your voice.
If you know anything about ease of maintenance and liability, we would love to hear from you.
Appreciate knowledge that you can share.
Thank you!

How much sailing experience do you have? How did you narrow it down to these two catamarans?

 

[Yngmar]

Sorry, but if you haven't even decided between pickup truck and sports cabriolet, you're probably not ready to buy a car just yet.

 

[Stingo]

Catamarans are all about performance at anchor, not sailing ability. In my humble opinion, the leopard wins hands down, largely because of the forward cockpit (for sundowners without having to stare into the setting sun while in the trade wind belt).

 

[Stingo]

Another thing, if you do more than 2000NM per year while cruising, that's a lot. This means approx 16 days at sea per year - performance at anchor is your priority

 

[geem]

Another thing, if you do more than 2000NM per year while cruising, that's a lot. This means approx 16 days at sea per year - performance at anchor is your priority

Hmm, if you cross an ocean, that's about 3000nm. Assuming you doing a bit of cruising, add another 1000nm.
Our record for one season is 9000nm and that didn't include an ocean crossing. If you want to sit at anchor and do nothing else, then yes, a condomoran is the answer

 

[Irish Rover]

Hmm, if you cross an ocean, that's about 3000nm. Assuming you doing a bit of cruising, add another 1000nm.
Our record for one season is 9000nm and that didn't include an ocean crossing. If you want to sit at anchor and do nothing else, then yes, a condomoran is the answer

9,000 miles @ say 6 kts = 1,500 hours ÷ 24 = 63 days. Assuming a season is a short 120 days what do you do the rest of the time?

 

[geem]

9,000 miles @ say 6 kts = 1,500 hours ÷ 24 = 63 days. Assuming a season is a short 120 days what do you do the rest of the time?

Travel inland for a couple of months in Columbia, on that occasion. Lots of exploring, hiking, running, kite surfing, wind foiling mostly.
We are not restricted by seasons. Almost full time liveaboard. We do enjoy the sailing. Having owned two catamarans, and moved to a monohull, I can see no reason to move back. We have several friends with large cats and I see the appeal, but I don't believe the luxury of all the space offsets the negative sides of cat ownership. The kind of cats the OP is looking at are low performance. On a par with an average monohull down wind and little upwind performance, very reliant on engines.
In addition, the quality issues associated with one of those brands would be a concern.
I was wondering if the OP had actually sailed one. It's a big decision if you are going to liveaboard full time.

 

[Irish Rover]

Travel inland for a couple of months in Columbia, on that occasion. Lots of exploring, hiking, running, kite surfing, wind foiling mostly.
We are not restricted by seasons. Almost full time liveaboard. We do enjoy the sailing. Having owned two catamarans, and moved to a monohull, I can see no reason to move back. We have several friends with large cats and I see the appeal, but I don't believe the luxury of all the space offsets the negative sides of cat ownership. The kind of cats the OP is looking at are low performance. On a par with an average monohull down wind and little upwind performance, very reliant on engines.
In addition, the quality issues associated with one of those brands would be a concern.
I was wondering if the OP had actually sailed one. It's a big decision if you are going to liveaboard full time.

Each to their own. Sounds like a great life. Sailing performance is obviously not an issue for me in my 43' powercat. The extra space is fantastic especially the outdoor social spaces. I assume you're talking about quality issues on the Leopards. My relatively new to me 2018 has no major issues but quality wise I think it doesn't match my previous smaller Fountaine Pajot powercat. Then again that's reflected in the price. I have no direct experience of Bali.

 

[srm]

From those two boats,
Leopard 4.5 &Bali 4.6
which one will you recommend to a couple of newbies that are looking to change their lives,
planning on full live-aboard and travel the world.
If you have any information regarding performance of those two vessels, please add a comment.
If you think one is better than the other for Bluewater crossing, please sound your voice.
If you know anything about ease of maintenance and liability, we would love to hear from you.
Appreciate knowledge that you can share.
Thank you!

I would echo @geem's question.

There is a very simple answer to your query if you are serious. Charter one of each for a minimum of 2 weeks, preferably a month + and get first hand experience. A longish charter could be money well spent and will inform your ideas on what you really want before making the capital commitment.

Edit: An after thought. Do you have the technical knowledge and ability to maintain or repair the boat and its systems in out of the way places without the facilities of a specialist yacht yard to call on?

 

[Sea Change]

From those two boats,
Leopard 4.5 &Bali 4.6
which one will you recommend to a couple of newbies that are looking to change their lives,
planning on full live-aboard and travel the world.
If you have any information regarding performance of those two vessels, please add a comment.
If you think one is better than the other for Bluewater crossing, please sound your voice.
If you know anything about ease of maintenance and liability, we would love to hear from you.
Appreciate knowledge that you can share.
Thank you!

I don't have a huge amount of experience of either, but we have friends with a Leopard who suffered some serious structural damage, to the extent that they could no longer tension their rig, during an Atlantic crossing in benign conditions.
On the other hand, Balis are used almost exclusively by charter companies and look like a floating block of flats. Big sliding patio doors are questionable at the best of times, but Bali put them on the *front* of the cabin. And they have that big solid foredeck with seating areas ready to be filled by a wave. Most cats have a trampoline there, and there's a reason for that...

 

[Wandering Star]

I don't have a huge amount of experience of either, but we have friends with a Leopard who suffered some serious structural damage, to the extent that they could no longer tension their rig, during an Atlantic crossing in benign conditions.
On the other hand, Balis are used almost exclusively by charter companies and look like a floating block of flats. Big sliding patio doors are questionable at the best of times, but Bali put them on the *front* of the cabin. And they have that big solid foredeck with seating areas ready to be filled by a wave. Most cats have a trampoline there, and there's a reason for that...

I had a similar experience (recounted here several years ago) when I delivered a Leopard 40 from Croatia to St Lucia. Ended up with a Spanish windlass holding the hard top Bimini in place as it wanted to go AWOL due to the retaining nuts unscrewing themselves and being inaccessible as they were moulded 9nto the supports. It was a more serious problem because the mainsheetbtackle was attached to the trailing edge of the bimini as I recall. The patio style sliding doors also came adrift. There was a second identical boat boat being delivered and the crew had very similar problems.

 

[Wandering Star]

This was the Leopard 40 prior to departure.

 

[Stingo]

A shocking read about Leopards. Their structural issues are possibly worse than I realised.

Big Catamaran Builder Offered $250,000 as Hush Money, Unhappy Buyer Says

 

[Roey]

I would echo @geem's question.

There is a very simple answer to your query if you are serious. Charter one of each for a minimum of 2 weeks, preferably a month + and get first hand experience. A longish charter could be money well spent and will inform your ideas on what you really want before making the capital commitment.

Edit: An after thought. Do you have the technical knowledge and ability to maintain or repair the boat and its systems in out of the way places without the facilities of a specialist yacht yard to call on?

Thank you so much for your reply to my questions
I really do appreciate any opinion and suggestions
I like the idea of charring each boat for a longer time to get a taste of it myself.
To your question, regarding maintaining the boat and the level of technical knowledge, I do have some knowledge, but I guess from following YouTube channels for years and years I’ve learned that I have no fear to try and sometimes fail.
I guess what I’m trying to say is I’m not intimidated to fix issues on my boat…. We learned by doing.

 

[Roey]

I don't have a huge amount of experience of either, but we have friends with a Leopard who suffered some serious structural damage, to the extent that they could no longer tension their rig, during an Atlantic crossing in benign conditions.
On the other hand, Balis are used almost exclusively by charter companies and look like a floating block of flats. Big sliding patio doors are questionable at the best of times, but Bali put them on the *front* of the cabin. And they have that big solid foredeck with seating areas ready to be filled by a wave. Most cats have a trampoline there, and there's a reason for that...

You’re definitely raising valuable points. Much appreciated!

 

[Roey]

I had a similar experience (recounted here several years ago) when I delivered a Leopard 40 from Croatia to St Lucia. Ended up with a Spanish windlass holding the hard top Bimini in place as it wanted to go AWOL due to the retaining nuts unscrewing themselves and being inaccessible as they were moulded 9nto the supports. It was a more serious problem because the mainsheetbtackle was attached to the trailing edge of the bimini as I recall. The patio style sliding doors also came adrift. There was a second identical boat boat being delivered and the crew had very similar problems.

Thank you so much for adding volleyball information! Much appreciated

 

[srm]

I like the idea of charring each boat for a longer time to get a taste of it myself.

Living long term on board a boat, which I have done at various times over 50 years, is very different to a holiday cruise. Your way of thinking tends to change somewhat, or at least mine did.
I hope you find a way that suits you and you enjoy it.

 

[Trident]

There are more and more reports coming out about shocking build quality from one of the builders on You Tube - a trickle seems to be turning in to a flood as many owners kept quiet having been told their problem was the first one of the kind ever and would be fixed. Now its emerging that many owners have had identical problems for years and had told the builder . On new boat has spent over 600 days on the hard - first in South Africa on hand over to rectify the most shocking bad quality, then in the Caribbean where its still on the hard under repair as more and more problems come out and they are still battling after 4 years to get warranty repairs paid for by the maker.

Obviously there are two side to every story but do be very careful and watch every review you can find.

You don't say if you want to buy new or second hand but either way get a full survey - make it a condition of final payment on a new boat that YOUR surveyor okays it before hand over.

I have been working extensively on cats for the last few years , at one point doing warranty repairs for a builder and dealing with issues on dozens of boats sold through brokerage and with issues on new boats being commissioned etc. I can't honestly say there is any new model that I would be happy to buy today - Outremer is probably the best but still have issues (though as I understand it they do deal with them very well and GLY who own the brand and just bought ORC have a very good attitude to their customers) - but production cats of all makes are just very very poorly made ; even those with 7 figure retail prices.

Another huge make can be seen in all its horrors on YouTube regularly with Parlay revival - weak bulkheads, poor gap work and recently the entire foredeck peeling off under sail because it was literally just sikaflexed down to the hull .

If you buy a mass produced charter cat then you need to be very capable of working on the boat and have a very good survey by someone you trust to know the job (there are no legal qualifications required to be a surveyor and many I have met miss a lot of issues)

 

[Irish Rover]

There are more and more reports coming out about shocking build quality from one of the builders on You Tube - a trickle seems to be turning in to a flood as many owners kept quiet having been told their problem was the first one of the kind ever and would be fixed. Now its emerging that many owners have had identical problems for years and had told the builder . On new boat has spent over 600 days on the hard - first in South Africa on hand over to rectify the most shocking bad quality, then in the Caribbean where its still on the hard under repair as more and more problems come out and they are still battling after 4 years to get warranty repairs paid for by the maker.

Obviously there are two side to every story but do be very careful and watch every review you can find.

You don't say if you want to buy new or second hand but either way get a full survey - make it a condition of final payment on a new boat that YOUR surveyor okays it before hand over.

I have been working extensively on cats for the last few years , at one point doing warranty repairs for a builder and dealing with issues on dozens of boats sold through brokerage and with issues on new boats being commissioned etc. I can't honestly say there is any new model that I would be happy to buy today - Outremer is probably the best but still have issues (though as I understand it they do deal with them very well and GLY who own the brand and just bought ORC have a very good attitude to their customers) - but production cats of all makes are just very very poorly made ; even those with 7 figure retail prices.

Another huge make can be seen in all its horrors on YouTube regularly with Parlay revival - weak bulkheads, poor gap work and recently the entire foredeck peeling off under sail because it was literally just sikaflexed down to the hull .

If you buy a mass produced charter cat then you need to be very capable of working on the boat and have a very good survey by someone you trust to know the job (there are no legal qualifications required to be a surveyor and many I have met miss a lot of issues)

Interesting post but why the reluctance to name names. I'm assuming the first part relates to Leopard but why do I need to go trawling through YouTube channels to see who you're referring to?