Leisure 22 v Nicholson 27 as a first boat

I suspect some of those who posted here are thinking of the Nic 27 as being a 26 which is a very traditional long-keeler. The Nic 27 is a Peter Milne design, 2 tons lighter yet much more spacious than the earlier Nic 26.

The 27 was built as an attempt by Camper & Nicholson to compete with the cheaper French imports that were getting popular. It's actually quite an attractive boat, and will certainly offer more space and accommodation than a Leisure 22, as well as being a fair bit faster. Original engines were usually only 7.5 hp, so a 20hp Beta is a big improvement, actually possibly a trace over-powered but no great issue.

I would not describe a Nic 27 as being a boat for "round the world", though if you are tough enough and reasonably lucky you can do that in anything. Look at Nicholson 27 archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales for more information.
 
She's not prepared to spend the time looking at yachts. I need to come back with a fait accompli. As in, this is the one I want. And then the battle begins....
 
Geo1000 said:
That's what I think, but when you have a budget, it's difficult to explain to the wife how that budget has suddenly doubled for a first boat!!!
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Hate to say it but I won't be the last. Your budget needs to feature maintenance and upgrades. There's potentially a 10k difference if the boat's been well maintained, vs if there's a stack of horrors awaiting you (although a recent survey is a good starting point).

But at the 27 foot level, it's still "affordable sailing". I would be leaning towards the nic and wondering if it would last me long...if you really want a stepping stone to 35 foot, so you can have guests and do longer passages in comfort, I would go straight there via a detour to some dinghy sailing and experience crewing for other people. If you want to do a week on board as a couple, the Nic 27 sounds grand. The Leisure will do you for overnighters, unless you are very hardy!
 
An outboard is a poor choice for a yacht, and a Parsun is a poor choice of outboard, IMHO.
An inboard is what you want, for all sorts of reasons, and a Beta is a very very good inboard.
That alone would swing it for me.

I should also add- there are loads of boats for sale, unless you live in the middle of nowhere I'd be surprised if you had only two genuine contenders within reasonable distance.
 
Kelpie said:
An outboard is a poor choice for a yacht, and a Parsun is a poor choice of outboard, IMHO.
An inboard is what you want, for all sorts of reasons, and a Beta is a very very good inboard.
That alone would swing it for me.

I should also add- there are loads of boats for sale, unless you live in the middle of nowhere I'd be surprised if you had only two genuine contenders within reasonable distance.
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Ive looked at loads Kelpie, but under the £5k there isn't that much choice for a decent boat that doesn't need a fair bit of work. I'm finding the best deals are to be found outwit the biggest dealers (no names no pack drill). The best deals seem to be at the sailing clubs round about the Forth and the Clyde.
 
Take the Catholic approach, ask for forgiveness. Don't ask for permission.

NOBODY has advocated the Hurley.
Outbaords use explosive petrol and don t work well in bouncy seas.
Outboards are noisy. Outboards can be stolen.
5ft extra at max beam and max head height is massively more comfortable.
lots of other newbies start at 36ft like they had on their courses.
 
As we are still some way off before the next season I would be inclined to keep looking at what is available, there are as Kelpie suggests, lots of boats around so spend a bit of time looking around.
There are lots of 25-27' boats for sale around the £4 x 6k if you want accommodation in a 25' then the Westerly Centaur has a good lineage although not the fastest boat in the pack, I will of course suggest you look at a Sadler 25, I think one of the best boats of its type.
From what I have seen recently it is very much a 'buyers' market at the moment so try making an offer on something you like you may find it will come into your price range.
 
A rather cramped floating caravan with a mediocre sailing performance, and a chainsaw for an engine - a pretty duff one at that, or a properly designed sailing boat witha decent diesel. No competition!

Few 22 footers with standing headroom will do well to windward.
 
Buy the Nic and budget £3500 to get it sorted. Then depending on where you keep it, about £1000 year in costs depending how handy you are.

think;

mooring cost
sails
engine/shaft and prop
rig
electronics/electrics
 
Really make an effort to get your wife on board,there is no fun otherwise,try a course for women only in the sun,wrong time of the year unfortunatly ,but a boat with a less than happy crew is a pain
 
jwilson said:
I suspect some of those who posted here are thinking of the Nic 27 as being a 26 which is a very traditional long-keeler. The Nic 27 is a Peter Milne design, 2 tons lighter yet much more spacious than the earlier Nic 26.
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The Nic 38 and 39 are night-and-day different too. As many here will know, the 39 is more spacious, being about a decade newer.

The build quality of the 39's I looked at was fantastic.
 
Got a hold of the survey for the Nic 27. Engine is a 2003 Beta (no actual hours run number, but states low?????). It says sail drive gator is fine, but doesn't say when it was last changed.
Standing rigging 10 years old. Headlinings need fixed. Couple of lengths of regulation gas pipe.
Survey recommends seeking price of £10.5k but she has been reduced to £5.5k.
What to do, what to do....
 
Geo1000 said:
Got a hold of the survey for the Nic 27. Engine is a 2003 Beta (no actual hours run number, but states low?????). It says sail drive gator is fine, but doesn't say when it was last changed.
Standing rigging 10 years old. Headlinings need fixed. Couple of lengths of regulation gas pipe.
Survey recommends seeking price of £10.5k but she has been reduced to £5.5k.
What to do, what to do....
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Get quotes to rectify all those shortcomings, then make a judgement.
 
As said a huge difference in the 2 boats. As said it is no point buying a smaller boat if you find you want the bigger boat. On the other hand the bigger boat will be much more expensive to own in terms of mooring and maintenance. The hard question which you probably can't answer is just how much you will use the boat. The number of boats neglected is a sure indication that people find buying a boat is buying a dream which then they find is not really their thing but are reluctant to accept it was all a mistake. Obviously if this happens to you the smaller boat will be less of a burden. Much also depends on where and how you want to sail. I have found for 40 years a 21ft suits me fine on Swan estuary. I did wonder last Sunday when with 5 adults and 3 kids it did not perform well in a race. Stern was so low water came in through the cockpit drains. Needed a person on the bow to get a bit better balance. Not such a problem with a 27fter. ol'will
 
Lots of questions are begged by your simple one, looking at a 22ft or 27ft boat to buy. Those two boats aren't really comparable whatever the brochures say.

First, try to imagine what you want to use the boat for. For many owning a boat is like a weekend cottage. In that case accommodation is a top priority. Cool wet days, wet nights...what would you need to be comfortable? Size and layout really matter then, as does a diesel heater. For others the boat is for pottering in an estuary and rarely used overnight, or only with a good forecast. More like camping - a 22ft boat that sails well can suffice. Then again, you might be dreaming of going off round the coast for weeks at a time. A decent reliable engine comes to the fore when cruising say 50nm a day - the wind rarely obliges (unless you buy a sleek trimaran that sails like a witch or something with a huge waterline). Cruising means too that you are going to have to weather F5 from time to time, gusting 6. No problem in larger boats but testing for the inexperienced in a smaller boat.

Second, the toilet (heads) matters a lot. Modern boats don't usually put it in a cabin with a bed (bunk). Times have changed.

Thirdly, the condition of the boat must match your budget/DIY skill level in a sensible way. Mending boats (if used they all need mending a lot of the time because the sea is so harsh on machines) is expensive in parts, and in labour if you can't supply that yourselves. Unless you are very willing to spend your time and money freely on maintenance and restoration, try not to buy from a lazy owner who has not kept up with the renewal programmes that boats need. Buy, if possible, from someone who loved the boat but has had to retire from sailing, or someone who loved the boat but has traded up (or down).

Fourth, where are you going to keep the boat? Marinas are expensive; do you know of places you can afford? What about the winter? Will the mooring be comfortable at night in a spring tide? Have you considered joining a sailing club?

Finally, regarding size, someone mentioned that boat size increases as the cube of the length. So a 26% increase in length results in a boat double the size (1.26 cubed is about 2). A 22ft sailing boat is camping. A 27ft boat is camping with benefits. A 30ft boat is beginning to be comfortable for two. A 37ft boat is comfortable for weeks on end. And so on. I would add though, that designs with a rear double bunk under the cockpit and a heads by the companionway make much more use of the space than older designs with narrow sterns.
 
garvellachs said:
Lots of questions are begged by your simple one, looking at a 22ft or 27ft boat to buy. Those two boats aren't really comparable whatever the brochures say.

First, try to imagine what you want to use the boat for. For many owning a boat is like a weekend cottage. In that case accommodation is a top priority. Cool wet days, wet nights...what would you need to be comfortable? Size and layout really matter then, as does a diesel heater. For others the boat is for pottering in an estuary and rarely used overnight, or only with a good forecast. More like camping - a 22ft boat that sails well can suffice. Then again, you might be dreaming of going off round the coast for weeks at a time. A decent reliable engine comes to the fore when cruising say 50nm a day - the wind rarely obliges (unless you buy a sleek trimaran that sails like a witch or something with a huge waterline). Cruising means too that you are going to have to weather F5 from time to time, gusting 6. No problem in larger boats but testing for the inexperienced in a smaller boat.

Second, the toilet (heads) matters a lot. Modern boats don't usually put it in a cabin with a bed (bunk). Times have changed.

Thirdly, the condition of the boat must match your budget/DIY skill level in a sensible way. Mending boats (if used they all need mending a lot of the time because the sea is so harsh on machines) is expensive in parts, and in labour if you can't supply that yourselves. Unless you are very willing to spend your time and money freely on maintenance and restoration, try not to buy from a lazy owner who has not kept up with the renewal programmes that boats need. Buy, if possible, from someone who loved the boat but has had to retire from sailing, or someone who loved the boat but has traded up (or down).

Fourth, where are you going to keep the boat? Marinas are expensive; do you know of places you can afford? What about the winter? Will the mooring be comfortable at night in a spring tide? Have you considered joining a sailing club?

Finally, regarding size, someone mentioned that boat size increases as the cube of the length. So a 26% increase in length results in a boat double the size (1.26 cubed is about 2). A 22ft sailing boat is camping. A 27ft boat is camping with benefits. A 30ft boat is beginning to be comfortable for two. A 37ft boat is comfortable for weeks on end. And so on. I would add though, that designs with a rear double bunk under the cockpit and a heads by the companionway make much more use of the space than older designs with narrow sterns.
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Thanks Garvellachs,

Good points made here. This is definitely a 'dip my toe in the water' boat, hence the low budget. I've had fairly basic experience of dinghy sailing and want to try something with a level of comfort, but not too expensive. The aim being that in a couple of years, I then know if it's not for me, or i will trade up. I want a boat which will convince the wife it's possible to be comfortable in a boat, so I don't want a boat that will put her off. but rather persuade her of the benefits to trading up. Its a long game......regarding condition, i've seen a few horrors and walked away, so I would say I was aware of the need for it to be in reasonable nick. I don't see myself as a great DIYer. For instance, first things I check are year of engine and if/when standing/running rigging were last changed out. I know that's not all there is to consider, but I think it shows I'm thinking the right way??? And as for mooring, lots of sailing clubs where i can moor a bilge keeler within an hours drive for less than £400 a year. Marina fees in Scotland would frighten the shirt off of you.

I think the answers I have been given confirm what I already thought. Going to see the Nic tomorrow, and if I like it, we'll move from there.
 
(y)
Good luck with the viewing.

Enjoy what you can afford, it's never long on here before some some joker says what you really need is a new, inordinately cumbersome, sailing caravan.

For an additional grand or so that replacement diesel engine is the clincher, it should give you reliability, power, good charging and help to sell the boat on when the time comes.

On a slightly downbeat note, some people will never really be comfortable with boats. The forum is littered with folk who have uprated their boat to bigger and bigger in the hope that a partner will take to it and it does not happen. Little steps.

.
 
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