Legal position wrt requirement to carry flares

[affinite]

The recent article in YM made me think again about carriage of flares on our boat.

Putting aside the argument as to wether the dangers associated with carriage/use of flares outweigh the advantages. (I know there is a raging debate about that), what is the legal requirement for carriage of flares on sailing yachts in the EU coastal waters and offshore. (Private 13m Sailing Yacht, British Flag, DSC VHF x 2, Emergency VHF aerial, EPIRB, Mob phone etc) ?

In a nutshell, what I want to know is if I choose not to carry flares, am I breaking any laws and are my insurance company likely to object.

BTW - Ive looked at RYA/MCA/SOLAS but cant find a definative statement.

 

[Seajet]

As I understand it, you're OK in UK waters without flares, but it's been a law long since that in French waters for instance, if one gets the wrong official they can penalise for out of date flares let alone not having any - and other safety kit on their list OOD or absent.

 

[Tranona]

In general the requirements for safety equipment such as flares is determined by the registration requirements of your boat. For a UK private boat there are none - so you have not broken any laws.

However, the situation is not the same in all countries, many of which have compulsory equipment requirements for boats registered in those countries. In theory this compulsion should not be applied to visiting boats, and in practice this is generally the case. It is not unknown for local officials to try and impose their own local standards, but it is not easy to determine whether this is official policy or just local action. Portugal is a recent case where there have been reports of the navy demanding compliance with local requirements, but the number of reports does not suggest a clear policy.

Not a very satisfactory situation - but that is how it is. The RYA and the Cruising Association do try and keep abreast of what is happening, but it is often difficult to get any clear facts.

 

[EdWingfield]

I had a 'safety inspection' by RNLI last year.

I explained that I didn't carry flares, but that I'd thought about' and had in place alternative means of communication. (help, I'm in the doodoo) He accepted that without a problem.

 

[Leonidas]

As I understand it, you're OK in UK waters without flares, but it's been a law long since that in French waters for instance, if one gets the wrong official they can penalise for out of date flares let alone not having any - and other safety kit on their list OOD or absent.

Same situation in Greece, irrespective to whether or not the boat is used commercially. For UK flagged yachts you may find MCA section titled: "Information on the regulations applicable to pleasure vessels " useful.

 

[Appledore]

My personal opinion is that I feel more better 'protected' by carrying a few flares. The do cost money, of course, and only have a 3-year life, but I believe many people replace two or three every year, thereby keeping the expenditure down.

I checked mine (12 in all - for a 22 footer!!!) this week, and found they all expire next year, but I did purchase them for my first trip from Plymouth to Guernsey 3 years ago - just in case. I think that in a 'panic situation', in addition to VHF (which could perhaps be out of action if the batteries failed) carrying a few flares is a sensible option.

 

[VicMallows]

in French waters for instance, if one gets the wrong official they can penalise for out of date flares let alone not having any

I thought that in France, you didn't need to have flares at all if you had DSC radio ...... but having out-of-date ones was a hanging (guillotining) offence . Something similar with fire extinguishers.

Vic

 

[Tranona]

As I understand it, you're OK in UK waters without flares, but it's been a law long since that in French waters for instance, if one gets the wrong official they can penalise for out of date flares let alone not having any - and other safety kit on their list OOD or absent.

Just to be clear - this is not currently the case, although there have been reports that some people have been questioned, there is no evidence of any penalties.

 

[Seajet]

Has it changed then ? ( serious question ).

This has been what I've understood since I started crossing the Channel in the 1970's.

 

[Appledore]

Just to be clear - this is not currently the case, although there have been reports that some people have been questioned, there is no evidence of any penalties.

Page 24 of YM Summer 2011 edition has a list of Mandatory equipment in French waters. This list includes in-date red hand-held and parachute flares, and orange smoke. Strangely enough the list does not show the need for VHF/DSC radio, merely 'Equipment allowing you to receive weather forecasts (radio, Navtex or GRIB)'.

Also shown is a list of Fines and penalties!!

Geoff

 

[Tranona]

Your "understanding" is incorrect. There are specific equipment requirements for French registered vessels (and Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and no doubt others) based on a system of categories defined by area of operation. However, they do not apply to visiting yachts. In the case of UK registered private yachts there are no requirements, although there are for commercial boats including charter boats - determined by the MCA codes for different areas of operation.

In practice the MCA codes and the French categories are similar. In the case of UK private yachts the "normal" safety equipment - radios, flares, LJs fire extinguishers etc voluntarily fitted would satisfy most of the French requirements. It is some of the more esoteric bits that may be missing - and one major item, a liferaft, which is compulsory for French boats going offshore.

The issue of flares flared up (sorry could not resist!) because there was a change in requirements stipulating that if flares were carried they must be in date - and there were reports of checks on some UK boats, but seemingly no reported action.

Most inspections in France are carried out by Douanes and their powers cover immigration and customs. Other issues to do with boats are the responsibility of the Gendarmes Maritime, who normally do not inspect visiting yachts.

 

[prv]

It is some of the more esoteric bits that may be missing

Am I right in thinking that French boats under about 25 feet are or were required to carry a large oar for sculling over the stern?

Pete

 

[GrahamM376]

Your "understanding" is incorrect. There are specific equipment requirements for French registered vessels (and Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and no doubt others) based on a system of categories defined by area of operation. However, they do not apply to visiting yachts. In the case of UK registered private yachts there are no requirements,

The following extract from RYA says differently -

The majority of cruising yachts will not however be regarded as being on a continuous and expeditious passage as they may be cruising along the coast, perhaps anchoring for lunch and they may also visit several ports within the Coastal State. These activities bring pleasure boaters under the jurisdiction of the Coastal State and they could then be required to adhere to all of their regulations.

For full text see - http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boatingabroad/Pages/unclos.aspx

 

[Blue5]

The recent article in YM made me think again about carriage of flares on our boat.

Putting aside the argument as to wether the dangers associated with carriage/use of flares outweigh the advantages. (I know there is a raging debate about that), what is the legal requirement for carriage of flares on sailing yachts in the EU coastal waters and offshore. (Private 13m Sailing Yacht, British Flag, DSC VHF x 2, Emergency VHF aerial, EPIRB, Mob phone etc) ?

In a nutshell, what I want to know is if I choose not to carry flares, am I breaking any laws and are my insurance company likely to object.

BTW - Ive looked at RYA/MCA/SOLAS but cant find a definative statement.

It very much depends on the laws of individual countries and whether you stop in those countries.
I can only speak from personal experience of Portugal and for any yacht (including British flag) that chooses to sail their waters and stop in a Portuguese port it is a legal requirement to carry flares, (3 parachute, 1 smoke and 3 handheld) irrespective of what other equipment or coding they may have.

 

[Seajet]

Having read Appledore & GrahamM376's posts I think I'll stick to my 'understanding' to hopefully avoid hassle...

 

[affinite]

So ... are we saying that sailing in UK waters, there is no LEGAL requirement to carry flares and that should apply to UK boats on passage but that when cruising in EU waters one would be best advised to conform to "local" regulations just in case ?

In which case who knows what the local regs for Greece and Turkey are ?

 

[jimbaerselman]

It very much depends on the laws of individual countries and whether you stop in those countries.
I can only speak from personal experience of Portugal and for any yacht (including British flag) that chooses to sail their waters and stop in a Portuguese port it is a legal requirement to carry flares, (3 parachute, 1 smoke and 3 handheld) irrespective of what other equipment or coding they may have.

For a full list of current Portuguese regulations, see http://www.jimbsail.info/drupal/portugal

Note the liferaft requirements!

If anyone has access to similar regulations for other countries, I can add those to my site.

 

[Tranona]

Page 24 of YM Summer 2011 edition has a list of Mandatory equipment in French waters. This list includes in-date red hand-held and parachute flares, and orange smoke. Strangely enough the list does not show the need for VHF/DSC radio, merely 'Equipment allowing you to receive weather forecasts (radio, Navtex or GRIB)'.

Also shown is a list of Fines and penalties!!

Geoff

That information was incorrect. Not only were the French requirements out of date, but none of it applies to UK registered boats.

I have had correspondence with both YM and the RYA on the subject, in which they both agree it is wrong. They promised to get clarification from the French authorities, but so far nothing has happened, so the Advice on the RYA site is still current.

 

[Tranona]

Having read Appledore & GrahamM376's posts I think I'll stick to my 'understanding' to hopefully avoid hassle...

So, do you take a liferaft with you when you go to France? Is your boat fully equipped to the French offshore standard?

The situation is that other countires "COULD" require you to meet their requirements, but evidence (such as 100's of UK registered boats kept permanently in France and Portugal, and no reports of any systematic inspections or sanctions) suggest they DON'T. In most countries they would require a specific law to apply any penalties, and again there is no evidence that such laws exist.

 

[Leonidas]

So ...
In which case who knows what the local regs for Greece and Turkey are ?

Best place to ask is the local Limenarchio ( Port Police office), The Ministry of Mercantile Marine, Ships Inspectorate Dpt. ( Sometimes, chandlers also give advice, but I wouldn't take it seriously) or agencies specializing in yacht registrations.

As far as I am aware all yachts in Greece (even small private fishing boats) need to carry safety equipment which includes life jackets, fire extinguishers , bailers ,flares etc. Number of flares depends on whether the yacht is classed offshore, coastal etc. but for Greek flagged private yachts the legislation requires 4 hand held and 2 parachute ones. Most people add the smoke distress signal as well. Greece have own requirements which unlike other countries include items such as for example Greek Third Party Liability endorsement in the yacht policy, but this is another blogg.
I would suggest that if you do not want to get into trouble with the authorities,( particularly if you are caught in a remote harbour,) you invest in a set of pyrotechnics, if you do not have one or the old one has expired. I know getting rid of the old one can be a PITA but there again, safety never comes cheap.