Lee shore gales and lightwinds....

[Robin]

We've all read the posts and the books and the magazines and heard the bar talk about the needed ability to claw off a lee shore in a gale. But is it really REALLY needed? How many have done it, want to do it, have HAD to do it or is it like having a car capable of 150mph on Guernsey with a speed limit of 40mph?

Conversely, how many boats only get going when the breeze gets up, like needing F5 to get to hull speed? Or 'we don't need to reef until it gets to F5/6'? Or 'she is really in her element in a F6'? Is this good or wouldn't it be nice to be able to sail at a reasonable speed on a nice day, with a breeze not an all out 'wind'?

I suspect that most of us see a lot more drifter days than lee shore panic ones, so which is more important to have capability for? Please ignore engines, which could after all be used to augment performance either in a gale or in a calm.

I will start the ball rolling.

In over 30 years of sailing in cruisers I have never HAD to claw off a lee shore in a gale. We have gone upwind in a gale yes, but didn't HAVE to and we weren't going far either. We have run downwind in a gale several times, but a shoe box could do that. I certainly don't WANT to do it! We have a boat, Jeanneau Sun Legende 41, that CAN do it as could our last 2 boats, a Westerly 33 Ketch and an Elaizabethan 30.

As for light winds well our current boat has a very slippery hull and will sail well in light conditions, we are currently averaging about 30% less engine hours on passage than in our W33 for example.

Over to the rest of the panel.............




<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[jimi]

Its a fair question and also relates to motorsailer's with the ability to tack through 180 degrees without their engine.

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[johna]

Methinks your morning would have been more rewarding had you played golf with us at Queens park. I don't think the "lee shore" ability is the main reason the majority of us buy the boats we do.

john

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[ChrisE]

As ever, Robin, an interesting post.

I'd say that it all depended on the type of sailing that you want to do. If you are going to stay within the confines of the Brest-Elbe box and inform your sailing decisions on weather forecasts then I'm sure that the need to claw off a lee shore in a gale is fairly low on your list. I'd, say, that this was also true of most Atlantic tradewind sailing. I'd qualify that with a caveat about being able to keep some searoom if you got caught out in Biscay en route to trades.

If, however, you are going transpac or high latitudes then I'd say that it was a must have because there is always the chance that you might need that capability.

That said, the number of people that actually do the second kind of sailing is small, the statistics from a YM cruising seminar is that for every 100 people that say they are going to do a tradewind crossing at the beginning of the year AND have the boat to do it only 5 do, so I think that it is fair to assume that even fewer do transpac or high latitude.

So if rationality plays any part in these process then the vast majority of boats are over-specced for thier actual usage but as has been stated before buying a boat is not a rational decision.

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[Ohdrat]

When I was a kid I learnt how important it was to be able to claw off a lee shore when sailing dinghy solo and trying to avoid the anglers conveniently sat on the lee shore..

Now having had several occassions attempting to sail the wrong way round the N of Scotland, which is a most unfriendly lee shore, I would say that knowing that the boat can, if need be, do it is important for my own peace of mind even if I hope never have to claw of Duncansby Head... that is one place which I have been rather too close too for comfort but only in F7 gusting 8 and that was quite enuf in wind over tide conditions!

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[Robin]

Spent the morning doing budgets, then opened a letter from my accountant warning of January's tax payment due and am contemplating leaving the country fast....Losing another game of golf to a known bandit would not have helped /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

I'm like everyone else, wanting a boat that CAN but not wanting to actually do it or really likely to have to, even as Chris says on a transatlantic circuit. There aren't too many lee shores mid-Atlantic! However, there are lots of times and places where the ability to sail in light winds would be very advantageous. Light winds don't get headlines in the bar though.....

Robin

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[Gunfleet]

Round here (Thames Estuary) there are lee shores in all directions, so theoretically we should all have claw-off-a-lee-shore-boats, but actually this is where stubby- little-bilge-keelers-which-go-sideways-as-fast-a-they-go-forward are most popular. Perhaps the term made more sense when there was more guesswork in the navigation... you know, 'is that the Goodwins? Ooer! Tack! Can't? Well then gybe!'

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[snowleopard]

yes, once 30 years ago i found myself embayed in a force 9 and had to beat out of it. the boat went to windward at 6 knots under storm jib and made good about 60 deg. off the wind. first trip out in a self-built boat, a distinctly brown trouser experience. did wonders for my subsequent confidence in the boat.

a boat that can get you off the proverbial lee shore can also get you home safely when the f4 beam reach you expected turns into a f7 beat. conversely a boat that would dump you on the beach in a gale would also mean you'd have been sitting in harbour waiting for weather most of last season.

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[AndrewB]

Never under sail alone, and never will.

The need to do so supposes scenarios that may have been a real risk 30 years ago but have now become highly unlikely.

Firstly, how did you get on a lee shore in a gale in the first place? Either (i) you didn't realise where you were until suddenly the coast loomed: - GPS has solved that one. Or (ii) you were on passage along (or anchored off) a benign shore when the weather deteriorated dramatically:- modern weather forecasting should preclude that when coastal sailing in most parts of the world.

Secondly, the size and reliability of modern engines is such that if one did get embayed in heavy weather - which admittedly I did a couple of times prior to GPS, then motorsailing is the way out.

But if it should happen - at least I've tested my yacht's ability to make ground to windward in an F7 in open sea with storm jib and trisail - and my ability to get those sails up. Reassurance is always good for us perpetual worriers!

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[PeterStone]

In support of what you say, I recall reading Adlard Coles's description of a storm in a Channel race. I think one of the boats was nearly at Cherbourg, which lay upwind. She tried every combination of sail and engine to beat into harbour in the rising wind but couldn't make it and was subsequently forced to turn round, within sight of refuge, head out to sea and later foundered, I think with loss of life.

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[Robin]

Early days but all replies so far

Have concentrated only on the lee shore gale half of the question and not the light wind half.

Is this because engines are now so big and reliable and fuel tanks big?

I believe it is every bit as important to be able to make progress in the light stuff as it is the heavy. Isn't it as big a problem to be say in the shipping lanes in light winds or close in to the rocks with a rope round the prop as to be off that lee shore in a F8? - It seems a more likely probability to me.

Come on guys - answer the WHOLE question!



<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[Robin]

That is correct I believe. That was in the kind of boat too that people consider as traditional, ultra capable, seaworthy, heavily built etc. My contraversial view would be to suggest that many modern designs (many, not all please note and size is a factor as well) WOULD have made Cherbourg in those conditions, not comfortably maybe but made it nonetheless, some with more engine assistance than others too. More efficient rigs and sails plus bigger reliable diesels all helping as to would modern instruments to monitor progress.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[Ohdrat]

Re: the rest of it...

OK well yes it is as important to know that the boat can sail off in light winds too.. against a heading sea... and possibly some tide... But there is always going to be a point were the wind is just too light to move you against the prevailing forces then I guess you just have to cope with being wrecked!

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[dralex]

Re: Early days but all replies so far

There is a huge amount of satisfaction to be had sailing well in light airs- our boat amazes me at times in light winds- we have to have very little wind to do less than 4 knots, and spend most of our sailing time doing at least 5kn. ANy decent breeze and we're tramping along at a steady 6.5-7kn aaverage. There are definately boats that seem better able to ghost along in light airs- our boat has a relatively high ballast ratio allowing a bigger rig. We also have a fully battened main and an obsessive sail trimmer ! I love sailing at almost the same speed others are motoring- Sunday was not one of those days- we were struggling to get more than 1kn of boat speed.

I'm not sure light air performance counts a lot towards safety in these days of reliable engines- take the situation already described of being pushed onto a lee shore in light winds with a fouled prop.. Just get the dinghy out and tow yourself off. If you don't have a dinghy, you're not going to lose any lives, just get a bit wet and end up with a damaged boat.

A boat good in light winds just enables you to enjoy the sailing a lot more often rather than having to motor, or more sadly, not bothering to go out.

One of the main reasons for buying our current boat was sailing ability and we've compromised on the interior volume as a result.

Hope this starts answering the other half of your question Robin.

<hr width=100% size=1>Just enjoy it.

 

[Evadne]

Re: light winds

As one who's boat is not at her best in light winds, I would want to make two points:
1) I perceive that the problem of boats not carrying on sailing but switching on the engine is as much due to timetables and expectations. A lot of people expect to do 6-7 knots in an F3 or more, and consider less than 4kts too slow, so on goes the engine. If you "plan" on 5kts average in a 25-30 footer then you'll motor everywhere in an English summer.
2) If you lower your expectations, and I for one think of it as a bonus if I get an extra couple of hours of sailing in when on a weekend jaunt up to the Solent, then even a heavier boat will ghost along at a couple of knots, which will get you about 16 miles on a tide. Granted, on a longer trip this will mean I'll miss the tidal gate somewhere given a weather forecast and a simple observation this all comes down to planning, based on the expected boat speed rather than the desired one.


Re. the lee shore, your may never have to do it but you only have to fail once for it to be areal problem. It's like the 3rd reef and the storm jib, they are there to make your boat more seaworthy, not necessarily because you plan on using them, and I'd rather have the ability and not need it than the other way around.

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[Robin]

Re: Early days but all replies so far

Thanks Alex

Well yes that addresses the second half of the question but not the first. I was trying to draw people into answering both parts together and to illustrate what if any trade-offs there were in order to favour one side of the equation over the other. I tend to think that to some extent we are brainwashed/frightened/naturally inclined towards resolving the heavy weather what if scenario at the expense of the pleasurable performance potential in the lighter stuff. Often experienced ocean crossers will say that calms are much more frequent and more troublesome at times than are gales, I'm excluding Southern Ocean stuff which is not what I'm talking about.

Robin

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[dralex]

Re: Early days but all replies so far

I have not done any really horrendous stuff in our boat yet, but met a chap in the pub at the weekend who has had his Dehler 34 from new for 14 years. It seems that this boat swings both ways ie loves light weather, but will chew up the heavy stuff- he has been out in 60-70kn storms and still been happily ( relatively) sailing when others have been struggling. He also confirmed my idea about getting a No.3 headsail to replace the 145% furling one for heavier weather. I think our boat would sail through most things- the other noticable attribute is having enough power under sail to keep momentum up in a head sea. The hull shape also helps this and that is possibly where the compromise is.

It sounds like most boats with relatively modern sails will make some headway, and therefore pull off a lee shore. Things will be different once the seas start breaking.

The only time I've ever been really worried about a lee shore was when capsized in a dinghy and drifting at a high rate of knots towards the dam overflow.

All IMO and with significantly fewer years on the high seas than some forum users.


<hr width=100% size=1>Just enjoy it.

 

[snowleopard]

part 2

i really don't see light wind performance as a safety issue except when the motor dies as you're crossing the TSS. certainly i wouldn't sacrifice heavy weather performance in favour of the ability to make an extra knot when ghosting.

the two certainly aren't mutually exclusive- look at an open 60 for example. a lightweight boat will go quickly in light airs and if it is a multihull or has a deep keel and high ballast ratio it will stand up to heavy weather going upwind.

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[ChrisE]

Re: Early days but all replies so far

I sort of agree with you about light winds but this excludes the special case of light wind, ie no wind. In the case of the TSS & no engine you have to be a bit creative with the VHF & possibly dinghy and outboard. If not in a TSS then drfit until anchor can be laid/a tow arrives/wind fills in. It's a bit like the sextant argument as backup to GPS, all well and good if you can see the sun/stars.

I don't see either requirement being mutually exclusive but if I was pushed I'd more concerned about heavy weather performance than light airs which are an inconvenience but rarely life threatening.

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[Becky]

Robin, this is a good thread, as your responses have indicated. I for one have concentrated on really heavy weather sailing, as I feel that to survive bad conditions will at least allow you to enjoy the light ones. We have just taken Cornish Maid round to Dell Quay to have the keel bolts replaced and the keel itself re-bonded following a little blow in August where we were testing the boat. It was quite windy, and to compound matters, we had too much sail up. Exciting and gratifying in how well the boat took the conditions, but we probably caused the keel to discover more play than is good for it. We were unable to weather St Albans Head and had to put a tack in. The wind was quite strong, gusting 6/7, maybe more, and we heard waves banging under the keel, we were rather horizontal at the time, below was a mess, but we wound in some sail and things settled down. The thing is, we could make to weather in quite bad conditions, which I for one wanted to know. On the other hand, we have sailed across the Solent in lightish conditions at 30 deg apparent without having to touch the helm. So balanced she can easily be. Another satisfying feeling.
Testing the limits of your boat isn't necessarily a good thing, unless you perceive a time when it could have a positive effect on your life expectancy; which is what we are about at this stage.
So at least we will have a really well fixed keel, ready for the next blow! And new sails to benefit from those hoped-for days when sailing is just a gentle down-wind drift.
(Then there is the rest of the stuff we feel is essential, the generator, the watermaker, the wind vane. Great, this sailing thing, isn't it?)
My point is that if you haven't been there already, or cannot simulate bad conditions, you don't know what your boat is capable of, so that if you meet survival conditions, you won't be prepared. Good sailing days are easier to prepare for.

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