LED Replacement Bulbs for old Lanterns? Are you insured?

[TSB240]

This has been raised in another thread.

http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/warning-not-to-use-led-bulbs-in-filament-bulb-navigation-lights-23781

Cruisiing Association members appear to be better informed .

No comment from RYA?

I have a commonly fitted Aqua Signal 40 series Bi colour unit and on replacement of the tungsten bulb by LED I was amazed by the improved intensity and colour clarity. No sign of colour bleed that my old eyes could detect.

However I see that Aqua Signal do not offer a new version of the 40 series with an led bulb.

They only have the new 43 series as an led only option.

This appears to suggest that approval for an led 40 series was not achievable with an led driver.

I am assuming the cost of retooling would be significant and why bother unless hand forced by legislation and approval?

Any comments would be appreciated especially from resident forumites connected with replacement LED sales (Boatlamps?)

Steve

 

[Saguday]

Well, the original article was about using white LEDs in a coloured nav light. Boatlamps have sectored red and green LED bulbs for the Aqua signal units and the white LEDs are only for stern/steaming/anchor lights as far as I'm aware so the main point of the article doesn't apply.

I'm disappointed Aquasignal haven't done a like-for-like replacement of their 40 series units with an LED version since our boat (and I'm pretty sure many thousands of others) have these installed and I'm eager to update them. In the absence of this I'll be trying out the Boatlamps LEDs in them to see how they perform.

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

The biggest problem is beam angle. Filament lamps are a beautifully thin vertical source, LEDs can only offer a blob. And its not a simple as masking off a bit of the new, larger arc of illumination. ColRegs define a maximum variation in luminous intensity over the required arc, by simply masking the edge of the beam from an LED you will have a fade off at the edges which is not acceptable.
So, options are:
Make a new fitting that is designed for LEDs
or
Make management optics that make an LED appear as a filament lamp.

The first is whats happening, no one is interested in the second since the profit on such a small volume of low cost items isnt worth it.

if there is a quick buck to be made then I would have a good look at monochromatic hologram lenses that can wrap round an LED.

 

[TSB240]

I'll be trying out the Boatlamps LEDs in them to see how they perform.

They have a disclaimer possibly for a good reason? "In common with other replacement LED lamps on the market, it is not possible to have any sort of marine authority certification for individual replacement bulbs. These LED lamps are easily visible at distances exceeding 3nm in standard fixtures and are the brightest replacement LED bulbs available. Given the vast array of navigation light fittings installed on marine vessels,it is the user's decision alone whether to use this product to retrofit any particular light fitting used for navigation purposes.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I have posted on this subject on other threads before and this is my take.

The colregs specify the minimum requirements for any navigation light power by any means to be compliant with to be legal. The law cannot specify that testing nust be done by any commercial firm it is up to the manufactures to do so mainly for marketing reasons.

An existing Aqua Signal with the vertical filament bulb complies with the colregs as tested and certified by an independent testing firm paid for by the manufacturer and pays a licence fee to use that testing firms certification and/or its logo on their products.

This does not mean that any other bulb does not comply all it means it has not been tested.

As for insurance. There will all ways be insurance loss adjusters to find reasons to not pay any claim. It is their jib to do that. The more they save the more jobs they will get.

There is any number of colours called white. Just look at any paint chart. My boat is painted Alpine white and is a little different to matterhorn white which is another shade from the same supplier.

The exact colour white from an incandescent bulb will vary a little depending on the exact voltage and the DC voltage on a boat incandescent navigation light can vary from 12VDC to 14+VDC as we all know.

On the Aqua signal type 40 that I use even with a vertical filament bulb you still get refraction in the lens so even with the filament behind the cutoff shade you will still see light that is refracted in the lens. So even with a vertical filament bulb you still do not get and truly sharp cut off.

Yes LED replacement bulbs do have a greater vertical lighting area than a vertical filament bulb but if you really wish to be pedantic about that you can adjust the cutoff shades to compensate for that.

As far as colour as I said filament colour varies with voltage but proper Navigation LED bulbs have built in voltage stabilisers to compensate for this voltage variation.

white LED generally com in cool white and worm white what ever that means. This too can vary depending on the doping of the semiconductor. To determine if the LED bulbs we fit into our navigations comply to the specification in the colregs, if we wish. need to measure the colour frequency of the light that emanates from the navigation lens before we start to say "LED bulbs do not comply with colregs"

I have cool white LED's in my Aqua signal anchor, mast head and stern navigation lights. I have "warm" white in my Bi and Tri colour lights and my very critical safety surveyor has made no comment so I will not have a problem with my insurance as my boat is certified sea worthy each year.

If he does ever question my nav lights he will have to measure the parameters and only is they fail to comply any aspect is he entitled to declare my boat un sea worthy and only then will I not only have issues with insurance but with the marina the port authority and the maritime safety authority, so insurance will be of minor concern.

BTW my boat is not commercial it is registered recreation and pleasure only.

You guys are lucky in the UK with your non existent regulations.

 

[prv]

white LED generally com in cool white and worm white what ever that means. This too can vary depending on the doping of the semiconductor. To determine if the LED bulbs we fit into our navigations comply to the specification in the colregs, if we wish. need to measure the colour frequency of the light that emanates from the navigation lens before we start to say "LED bulbs do not comply with colregs"

I have Bebi lamps, and they used to have a colour gamut graph on their website showing the results of testing their warm white LED units mounted in an Aqua-Signal tricolour housing (which is the brand I have). The red and white segments were smack in the middle of the Colregs technical spec, the green was slightly off to one side but still well within the limit.

Sadly, the American owners of the company were forced to leave as a result of the Fijian coups and the company closed down, so the graph is no longer available. But between that and my own observations I'm perfectly happy with the output of my lamps.

Pete

 

[Saguday]

Early LED's had poorly controlled spectra and the white ones had big gaps which would not play well with coloured lenses designed to work with full-spectrum filament lights., hence the warnings about using them in coloured sector lights - that's all well and good. However the technology and processes are much better these days and I would have no problem with using a 'warm white' (roughly 2700-3000K) LED in any application where a conventional filament lamp is used outside of existing coloured sector lights. BTW the definition of these 'white' LEDs is not really standardised and 'Daylight White' and 'Cool White' in particular are often confused, 'Daylight' usually around 4000K and therefore more blue than 'Warm', although some stray up to 5000K which is what most marketeers call 'Cool'. Ignore the names and look at the colour temp in degK and of more importance the lumens (and lumens/watt). Personally I would only use 'Warm White' LEDs to replace the anchor/stern/steaming lights as they are closest in hue to the filament lamps people are used to. Cool or Daylight temp units would be ok for deck or cabin use if you like the modern bright look.

My insurers ask no questions about what technology is used to provide my running lights so provided the colregs requirements are met and the lumen output is sufficient to meet the visibility range needed I don't see what the issue would be. Anyway, mindful of this thread, I've just had a chat with them to see what they think and they said "oh, yes, that topic again" so they're going to get the latest from their underwriters and get back to me.

What I do know is that any given manufacturer is likely to make a heck of a lot more money from me if I have to completely replace all of my lights at £70-80 each for new 'LED approved' ones instead of buying LED equivalent replacement bulbs for the ones I already have.

 

[doug748]

Well, the original article was about using white LEDs in a coloured nav light. Boatlamps have sectored red and green LED bulbs for the Aqua signal units and the white LEDs are only for stern/steaming/anchor lights as far as I'm aware so the main point of the article doesn't apply.

I'm disappointed Aquasignal haven't done a like-for-like replacement of their 40 series units with an LED version since our boat (and I'm pretty sure many thousands of others) have these installed and I'm eager to update them. In the absence of this I'll be trying out the Boatlamps LEDs in them to see how they perform.

Check this out for the white replacements:

http://www.boatlamps.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d340_Page_347.html

 

[Martin_J]

Interesting though that the ybw article really only refers to the visible distance of the light.. and many posters also only refer to the colour.

I'm more interested in the cut-off between the red and the green (as seen from ahead) and don't like the idea of a led replacement that has a relatively wide source when compared with the narrow vertical filament source of the original Aqua Signal bulb. I haven't got the paper to hand but I'm sure the compliance paperwork that is included with all new filament Aqua Signal light fittings alludes to the fact they're only compliant when fitted with the correct Aqua Signal bulb.

As it happens the original bulbs cost about the same as the 'non-original' so I've always gone with original replacements.

 

[rotrax]

For anyone using the excellent red/green led replacements for festoon bulbs-Aquasignal is one that uses them-you will find the bulb will rotate in use, misaligning the red/green with the red/green lens.

This, of course, is useless.

My fix, which worked for five years, was to tightly strap small cable ties on the metal ends of the led twin colour bulb, with the ends facing different ways.

Installing the bulb with the colours centred, the cable ties are snipped off so that each end tucks behind the rear plastic housing. The lower one pushes the bulb one way, counteracted by the top one pushing the other. Works a treat and proved very reliable. Echo the other posters who found the light intensity much improved.

 

[prv]

I'm more interested in the cut-off between the red and the green (as seen from ahead)

When I first installed Ariam's lamps I went and stood on a pontoon about 100m away directly in front of her bow. Moving from side to side, it's true that there's a narrow sliver where the light seems to show both green and red - but it's really narrow, less than the width of a standard pontoon at that 100m (measured on google maps ) distance. Boats move, so nobody is going to remain within that sector, it's something that will flash momentarily across them as the bow swings or they move across my path. I doubt it's even detectable at sea, and even if it were, I can't see that it's misleading.

Pete

 

[lw395]

Interesting though that the ybw article really only refers to the visible distance of the light.. and many posters also only refer to the colour.

I'm more interested in the cut-off between the red and the green (as seen from ahead) and don't like the idea of a led replacement that has a relatively wide source when compared with the narrow vertical filament source of the original Aqua Signal bulb. I haven't got the paper to hand but I'm sure the compliance paperwork that is included with all new filament Aqua Signal light fittings alludes to the fact they're only compliant when fitted with the correct Aqua Signal bulb.

As it happens the original bulbs cost about the same as the 'non-original' so I've always gone with original replacements.

The red/green transition does seem to be very messy on quite a lot of yachts I've seen.
It does not often matter to the nth degree, because yachts tend to change course on every wave.
But it's disconcerting when one disappears for several seconds.

 

[lw395]

Early LED's had poorly controlled spectra and the white ones had big gaps which would not play well with coloured lenses designed to work with full-spectrum filament lights., hence the warnings about using them in coloured sector lights - that's all well and good. However the technology and processes are much better these days and I would have no problem with using a 'warm white' (roughly 2700-3000K) LED in any application where a conventional filament lamp is used outside of existing coloured sector lights. BTW the definition of these 'white' LEDs is not really standardised and 'Daylight White' and 'Cool White' in particular are often confused, 'Daylight' usually around 4000K and therefore more blue than 'Warm', although some stray up to 5000K which is what most marketeers call 'Cool'. Ignore the names and look at the colour temp in degK and of more importance the lumens (and lumens/watt). Personally I would only use 'Warm White' LEDs to replace the anchor/stern/steaming lights as they are closest in hue to the filament lamps people are used to. Cool or Daylight temp units would be ok for deck or cabin use if you like the modern bright look.

My insurers ask no questions about what technology is used to provide my running lights so provided the colregs requirements are met and the lumen output is sufficient to meet the visibility range needed I don't see what the issue would be. Anyway, mindful of this thread, I've just had a chat with them to see what they think and they said "oh, yes, that topic again" so they're going to get the latest from their underwriters and get back to me.

What I do know is that any given manufacturer is likely to make a heck of a lot more money from me if I have to completely replace all of my lights at £70-80 each for new 'LED approved' ones instead of buying LED equivalent replacement bulbs for the ones I already have.

Personally, if you are filtering LED white light to get red and green, I'd be looking at the colour rendering index rather than the colour temperature.
Even then it's a bit suck it and see.

 

[Sailingsaves]

The biggest problem is beam angle. Filament lamps are a beautifully thin vertical source, LEDs can only offer a blob. And its not a simple as masking off a bit of the new, larger arc of illumination. ColRegs define a maximum variation in luminous intensity over the required arc, by simply masking the edge of the beam from an LED you will have a fade off at the edges which is not acceptable.
So, options are:
Make a new fitting that is designed for LEDs
or
Make management optics that make an LED appear as a filament lamp.

The first is whats happening, no one is interested in the second since the profit on such a small volume of low cost items isnt worth it.

if there is a quick buck to be made then I would have a good look at monochromatic hologram lenses that can wrap round an LED.

You are quite right.

I solved this problem: i.e. I can make an LED bulb that fits old nav lights and produces the correct colour and SECTOR CUT-OFF angle (someone on here once said a tolerance of 3 degrees was needed - whether that was the law or not I don't know - and in practice 3 degrees or more won't matter - it would only matter if a legal issue arose)

Anyway, I took an old broken filament bulb and used it as the basis for my build and it meets all the requirements (for practical sailors and lawyers if disaster strikes) - a bright, low current draw, LED bulb to fit in old fittings of correct 'whiteness' to produce bright correctly coloured sectors with no overlap.

But it was labour intensive as you mention - but then it was a prrof of concept and then a working prototype and they are always labour intensive.

But it is so simple it could be mass produced and then not labour intensive. In fact it would be very cheap to make.

Can I afford to take a patent out on it? No. Not even at £600 (simple patents can be granted for that - I have a patent attorney that charges this fee for simple products - thanks to Mark - he is also an inventor - but a successful one - http://putdowntraps.com/ )

Am I a risk taker. No; at least not with my family's money. The risk is: is the market big enough to fork out £600 and hire someone who knows someone who could get the simple bulb made.

For now I just take satisfaction that I have solved a problem and a mate gets to use my nav lights.

Any venture capitalists out there? Any angels? I have a great track record at choosing poor business partners that waste my time and do nothing for the product.

 

[rogerthebodger]

When I first installed Ariam's lamps I went and stood on a pontoon about 100m away directly in front of her bow. Moving from side to side, it's true that there's a narrow sliver where the light seems to show both green and red - but it's really narrow, less than the width of a standard pontoon at that 100m (measured on google maps ) distance. Boats move, so nobody is going to remain within that sector, it's something that will flash momentarily across them as the bow swings or they move across my path. I doubt it's even detectable at sea, and even if it were, I can't see that it's misleading.

Pete

That's exactly my view on this. Also IMHO even with a vertical filament bulb you will still see a narrow band of red and green. Would be interesting to do the same test you did but with a vertical filament bulb but I doubt you could do it with you bibi fitting.

I might see if I could take some pics if I can get some distance away, not easy in our marina without getting very wet.

 

[Martin_J]

Another option for LED lights.. Yikes Hard to believe.. Perhaps sbdy can copy the picture and paste..
Hope we don't come across these LED lights

 

[lw395]

The irony is, I'm not sure it's worth the aggro any more, boat electrics have improved such that running a 25W bulb overnight is no big deal and I seem to have a supply of vertical filament bulbs that will see me out...

 

[lw395]

You are quite right.

I solved this problem: i.e. I can make an LED bulb that fits old nav lights and produces the correct colour and SECTOR CUT-OFF angle (someone on here once said a tolerance of 3 degrees was needed - whether that was the law or not I don't know - and in practice 3 degrees or more won't matter - it would only matter if a legal issue arose)

Anyway, I took an old broken filament bulb and used it as the basis for my build and it meets all the requirements (for practical sailors and lawyers if disaster strikes) - a bright, low current draw, LED bulb to fit in old fittings of correct 'whiteness' to produce bright correctly coloured sectors with no overlap.

But it was labour intensive as you mention - but then it was a prrof of concept and then a working prototype and they are always labour intensive.

But it is so simple it could be mass produced and then not labour intensive. In fact it would be very cheap to make.

Can I afford to take a patent out on it? No. Not even at £600 (simple patents can be granted for that - I have a patent attorney that charges this fee for simple products - thanks to Mark - he is also an inventor - but a successful one - http://putdowntraps.com/ )

Am I a risk taker. No; at least not with my family's money. The risk is: is the market big enough to fork out £600 and hire someone who knows someone who could get the simple bulb made.

For now I just take satisfaction that I have solved a problem and a mate gets to use my nav lights.

Any venture capitalists out there? Any angels? I have a great track record at choosing poor business partners that waste my time and do nothing for the product.

It is 3 degrees.
My reading of the annex is that an overlap of 1 to 3 degrees is OK, but any dimming below nominal brghtness is not.
If we take the diameter of the light fitting as say 50mm, then 3 degrees is a chord of just 1.3mm.
Which I think implies using very small LEDs or something clever.
If you have a design, it might be feasible to get something 3D printed, within the budget of what chandlers want for nav light units.
I've had small batches of little plastic things printed quite cheaply.

 

[Saguday]

Personally, if you are filtering LED white light to get red and green, I'd be looking at the colour rendering index rather than the colour temperature.
Even then it's a bit suck it and see.

Agreed, but then I'm not advocating using white LEDs and filtering but using red and green LEDs for their intended purpose

 

[Sailingsaves]

I have a basic build it yourself 3D printer. Useful thing it is too (even if it takes hours to get something printed without mistakes)

But as you say, battery technology and solar panel tech have improved so much and become so cheap that some people don't need LEDs.

LEDs are darn good for reliability though; in the space of 2 minutes I saw two cars each with one brake light not working.

So market could be small. But as I live off a shoestring, even if I made and sold a few 100, it would be good.

Won't happen though.