LED and Laser Distress Flares - do you rely on them?

[Mark-1]

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[graham]

EPIRB and DSC should cover it with led or traditional hand held flare / orange smoke for the rescue vessel to home in on when it gets close .



I once heard the coastguard call a ship anchored off Swansea and asked the officer on watch ,who sounded Indian and spoke good english ,if he had seen any red flares .He replied that yes he had .The C.G. officer did not ask him wtf he didn't report the flares but a lengthy conversation about bearing and distance from the ship ensued. Turned out to be an angling boat with dead batteries and no phone signal.

 

[westhinder]

Before you make the leap, could I suggest the following thoughts? (I used to fly SAR helicopters but these are my own views, opinions and observations). The MCA have regulations so that their SAR assets are optimised to the kit used by mariners to raise the alarm and attract attention. It might be useful to put yourself in the point of view of the searchers. Lifeboats are similar to boats, but head up to the top of a 200’ cliff and have a look at the sea in front of you. That’s what a helicopter crew sees when they are looking for you (although they do have a very fancy camera system too). If you only sail by day, just how visible is an LED on a bright sunny day? Smoke flares are unsurpassed in my opinion for pin pointing your position by day. Coloured LEDs are invisible or at best indistinct on night vision goggles. Those bright blue lights on ambulances - invisible to NVG, the red lights on TV aerials and wind turbines - bearly visible and not distinguishable against back ground lights. There is no mistaking a handheld flare. Lasers are amongst crew’s worst nightmare. The bright flash experienced is distracting and severely damages night vision. Pilots are trained to turn away from lasers and as with LEDs, just how effective are they by day?

I still fly over the sea for a living and am provided with a lifejacket with lights whistles sprayhood and have a night/day flare and PLB stuffed under my right armpit. Trust me if I thought an LED flare was better, that’s what I’d carry but I am very happy with the night/day. Still have flares on the boat and will continue to do so.

That is very interesting. Do you have any practical experience of how visible an LED flare is from helicopter height?

 

[maxi77]

I wasn't setting out a comprehensive case that flares are less safe\effective than the alternatives. I was just stating a few random thoughts.

If you want the basis of the case then this is a starting point:

Carriage of Pyrotechnic Flares | Current Affairs | Knowledge & Advice | RYA - Royal Yachting Association

And have you looked into the safety of laser devices they can present serious risk of eye damage if used wrongly

 

[Mark-1]

And have you looked into the safety of laser devices they can present serious risk of eye damage if used wrongly

I don't recall mentioning lasers & Laser devices don't work in this context - they need to be directed at the rescuer and you don't know always know exactly where your rescuer is and even if you did you'd only be on target for moments at a time. The vast array of alternatives are far better.

As for safety I'd wouldn't give a four year old a powerful laser that seems as insane as flares. The first thing he'd do is point it in his eye.

 

[Sandy]

Before you make the leap, could I suggest the following thoughts? (I used to fly SAR helicopters but these are my own views, opinions and observations). The MCA have regulations so that their SAR assets are optimised to the kit used by mariners to raise the alarm and attract attention. It might be useful to put yourself in the point of view of the searchers. Lifeboats are similar to boats, but head up to the top of a 200’ cliff and have a look at the sea in front of you. That’s what a helicopter crew sees when they are looking for you (although they do have a very fancy camera system too). If you only sail by day, just how visible is an LED on a bright sunny day? Smoke flares are unsurpassed in my opinion for pin pointing your position by day. Coloured LEDs are invisible or at best indistinct on night vision goggles. Those bright blue lights on ambulances - invisible to NVG, the red lights on TV aerials and wind turbines - bearly visible and not distinguishable against back ground lights. There is no mistaking a handheld flare. Lasers are amongst crew’s worst nightmare. The bright flash experienced is distracting and severely damages night vision. Pilots are trained to turn away from lasers and as with LEDs, just how effective are they by day?

I still fly over the sea for a living and am provided with a lifejacket with lights whistles sprayhood and have a night/day flare and PLB stuffed under my right armpit. Trust me if I thought an LED flare was better, that’s what I’d carry but I am very happy with the night/day. Still have flares on the boat and will continue to do so.

Thank you for posting.

 

[boomerangben]

That is very interesting. Do you have any practical experience of how visible an LED flare is from helicopter height?

I'll be honest here and say no I don't. That is why I am careful to say that these are my own observations, opinions etc. All I am doing is pointing out that coloured LEDs are not always compatible with Night Vision Goggles. I personally have doubts about LED flares which might prove to be unfounded. The fact that they are not approved at the moment suggests to me that either testing has not been done or they don't meet the required standard (or there isn't a standard to test them by).

I have seen handheld flares used by day and night and countless smokes by day. They are unmistakable. When combined with electronic beacons/DSC radios they offer the complete package of getting the rescuer to the right patch and then getting eyes on the casualty in as short a time as possible. I think it is all too easy to forget that since most sailing is done by day, whatever visual signalling device one chooses, it has to be able to compete with bright sunlight reflected off the sea. Yes flares are expensive, have a limited life span and are perceived as overly dangerous. But if I have run aground or am taking on water and need assistance, or have an urgent medical emergency or am in the water, I want to make sure whoever is coming to help has the very best chance of finding me as quickly as possible, day or night.

 

[RAI]

Lagos Navigators used to have the results of their occasional old flares tests on the beach. All well organised with the GNR.
The year I tried my oldest, just in case, flares were ten years old. The failure rate of old flares was surprisingly high, although looking in good condition. The weakness was the fuzes, they failed to light. Of those that did light need two hands to start and one hand to hold at arms length. So while hanging on to a rocking boat, that's all one does for about 60 seconds. God forbid one drops it in board.
Rocket flares require practice to use safely, in my view, even then, mind where you point them.
I carry them only because they are required and plan never to use them in earnest.

 

[Stemar]

And have you looked into the safety of laser devices they can present serious risk of eye damage if used wrongly

I would think that the likelihood of being able to point a laser flare at someone's eye long enough to harm them in a bouncing boat is pretty small. Certainly far less than the risk of dropping a pyrotechnic or getting a spark in the eye. It's a theoretical risk, but not one that would concern me overly. It may be instant death to night vision, but certainly not instant eye damage, unlike burns.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Lagos Navigators used to have the results of their occasional old flares tests on the beach. All well organised with the GNR.
The year I tried my oldest, just in case, flares were ten years old. The failure rate of old flares was surprisingly high, although looking in good condition. The weakness was the fuzes, they failed to light. Of those that did light need two hands to start and one hand to hold at arms length. So while hanging on to a rocking boat, that's all one does for about 60 seconds. God forbid one drops it in board.
Rocket flares require practice to use safely, in my view, even then, mind where you point them.
I carry them only because they are required and plan never to use them in earnest.

I plan never to use Mayday flares or electro flares in earnest. But if fates take no notice of my plans and I must request urgent assistance I want to maximise my chances of sucess and survival

 

[Sandy]

I would think that the likelihood of being able to point a laser flare at someone's eye long enough to harm them in a bouncing boat is pretty small. Certainly far less than the risk of dropping a pyrotechnic or getting a spark in the eye. It's a theoretical risk, but not one that would concern me overly. It may be instant death to night vision, but certainly not instant eye damage, unlike burns.

You might like to take that up with the CAA and BALPA.

The video of laser pens being shone at aircraft cockpits and the affect on the crew is terrifying.

 

[LadyInBed]

That is very interesting. Do you have any practical experience of how visible an LED flare is from helicopter height?

This might help (from link in #81)

 

[Gary Fox]

It's time to stop the misleading use of the word 'flares' to describe battery-powered gadgets with flashing LED's or whatever.
I suggest 'Emergency Winky-Twinklers' .

 

[Stemar]

The couple of laser flares I looked at were 5mW or less. The risk of eye damage is only for a few metres - on board or pretty close by. Flash blindness is a nuisance, but there's a world of difference between a laser pointer and a flare with a fan beam. As for distraction hazard, that seems to me to be the object of the exercise.

If I'm using a laser flare, I'm going to be waving it around quite deliberately, not focussing it on the cockpit of a plane, like those twats who think it's clever to put lives at risk. My flare is LED, so zero risk to anyone, but even a laser is less dangerous than a sodding great firework in the hands of a scared sailor

 

[Gary Fox]

"... In addition..." not instead of, says the MCA.

 

[maxi77]

I would think that the likelihood of being able to point a laser flare at someone's eye long enough to harm them in a bouncing boat is pretty small. Certainly far less than the risk of dropping a pyrotechnic or getting a spark in the eye. It's a theoretical risk, but not one that would concern me overly. It may be instant death to night vision, but certainly not instant eye damage, unlike burns.

Laser damage to the retina takes place faster than your blink reflex. The devices I have looked at can cause eye damage if not used safely

 

[Sandy]

I have posted this in previous threads on the topic, but it shows the reaction of a SAR Helicopter crew to a red flare.

 

[Graham376]

You might like to take that up with the CAA and BALPA.

The video of laser pens being shone at aircraft cockpits and the affect on the crew is terrifying.

Plenty of warnings here - (12) pilots and lasers - YouTube