LED and Laser Distress Flares - do you rely on them?

[oldmanofthehills]

It flippen well is!!! Too wary to turn it on for more than a moment but it till bounce off building way off in the distance, crazy bright! No way would you miss that from miles around. Just not very legal...

Except for the caveat that stuck in the middle of the sea, say 12miles from shore you would have no idea where to aim the beam.

Its a bit like the debate as to whether to go for powerful long range single shot rifles for the military or multi burst assault weapons than can smother the target. The accidental kill factor of powerful long range weapons is also an unfortunate function, similar to ones burning out the retina of distant observers with over powerful lasers.

 

[Gary Fox]

Using a white flare for a pan pan might cause an uninformed person on the shore to call out the lifeboat. It would not call out aid from club or other shore facilities so I am not sure it is appropriate, if there is any other means to gain assistance. Maybe if nothing happens and one has no contact, then one is approaching a more urgent situation, so it would become appropriate

A white rocket flare is for illumination. I can and will use a white flare whenever I feel like it.
MOB is a prime example, but there are infinite others.
I don't care what these 'uninformed' people might or might not do, in fact it would be a dereliction of my decision-making process as skipper for such considerations to be permitted to enter my train of thought.

 

[Gary Fox]

Using a white flare for a pan pan might cause an uninformed person on the shore to call out the lifeboat. It would not call out aid from club or other shore facilities so I am not sure it is appropriate, if there is any other means to gain assistance. Maybe if nothing happens and one has no contact, then one is approaching a more urgent situation, so it would become appropriate

If you , quote, ' used a white flare for a pan-pan' unquote, there are a few issues but I am working just now, it is an interesting subject.

 

[Bobc]

Flashing red light in an area where people are used to see flashing channel buoys is hardly likely to be noticed whereas a red flare will be.

Surely if you're in an area where there are channel markers, you'll use your VHF, DSC, Mobile phone?

 

[GHA]

Except for the caveat that stuck in the middle of the sea, say 12miles from shore you would have no idea where to aim the beam.

Its a bit like the debate as to whether to go for powerful long range single shot rifles for the military or multi burst assault weapons than can smother the target. The accidental kill factor of powerful long range weapons is also an unfortunate function, similar to ones burning out the retina of distant observers with over powerful lasers.

You've never used one. Or been in a city in China at night where at least one tower block at night will have someone playing with a laser, street market cheapos there are usually 1W though, still very bright.
Point it in any direction everyone for lots of miles around can instantly see the beam and where it's coming from. No way could you miss it. Think 80's rock concert laser show. And yes, bad idea to point it less than up in the air.

 

[Gary Fox]

Surely if you're in an area where there are channel markers, you'll use your VHF, DSC, Mobile phone?

For what purpose?

 

[oldmanofthehills]

A white rocket flare is for illumination. I can and will use a white flare whenever I feel like it.
MOB is a prime example, but there are infinite others.
I don't care what these 'uninformed' people might or might not do, in fact it would be a dereliction of my decision-making process as skipper for such considerations to be permitted to enter my train of thought.

You are quite correct it is legal anytime to use white, and I think I was being too cautious, having with other members of my club triggered false alarms by merely stopping with sails flapping as we reefed them at the outer bar as it were (CG have hard time getting meaningful data from calls from ill informed tourists). However an MOB is a mayday situation and you would be derelict to use any other than all possible means

 

[scottie]

I have used red rocket after being unable to contact anyone with a HH VHF on the Clyde late May

Approximately 200 yards of toward point due to a major diesel leak causing power failure in. 7mtr RIB the anchor was dragging and I knew that I was running out of water for anyone to get a tow despite a number of vessels passing I was not been seen to in trouble and no response to VHF
Before the flare had extinguished I had the cal Mac ferry in Rothesay reporting it and spoke with coast guard within minutes
So the red rocket was effective at 2 1/2 miles rainy day blowing about force 6

 

[salar]

Thanks everybody for an interesting debate. It appears that opinions haven't changed much in the last four years which is when I last looked into it. I think I'll buy a LED flare and keep my out of date handhelds. I have called for help on the radio but in nearly 50 years of boating, never had to use a flare. I must have spent a lot of money on flares in that time.

 

[dunedin]

I'd be more interested to hear the views of the Lifeboats, RNLI and Independants, and the CG helicopter pilots as I strongly suspect few in the RYA have participated in rescues.

I strongly suspect that the RYA have asked them, they don’t make these statements lightly.

And I agree with the RYA.

 

[Graham376]

Surely if you're in an area where there are channel markers, you'll use your VHF, DSC, Mobile phone?

I would use every means available but nearby boats won't hear a mobile phone and if batteries are submerged, VHF may not be working. They would most likely see a flare.

 

[lloydlloyd]

Would it not be wise to use all means of help.
I would not single one out as being better or worse, just better for certain situations.
if you have the money then get as many different devices as you can that will help save your life.
"better to have and not need. that to need and not have"

 

[maxi77]

You've never used one. Or been in a city in China at night where at least one tower block at night will have someone playing with a laser, street market cheapos there are usually 1W though, still very bright.
Point it in any direction everyone for lots of miles around can instantly see the beam and where it's coming from. No way could you miss it. Think 80's rock concert laser show. And yes, bad idea to point it less than up in the air.

Technically they should be less than 1W but low cost manufacturing methods mean that the diodes have a range of possible outputs some slightly less but some significantly more as they aim to have as many reach the 1W target the spread of outputs is mainly above the limit. We tested some when they first came out and as a result they were banned within the company, even the ones supplied with AV equipment. It took a few years before the AV suppliers got their act together over pointers. That is one of the difficulties with laser flares they have to be nominally eye safe but still visible and recognisable at long ranges, no good alerting the rescue services then blinding your rescuer

 

[Mark-1]

Some random thoughts:

- I was looking through my local RNLI shouts a couple of years back. The number of shouts for "Flare sighted, nothing found " was alarming. 'EPIRB triggered, nothing found would be errr, unusual.'

- I saw a flare demo in a boat park. The guy wore leather gauntlets, eye-protection and stood by two buckets of sand. He had moved away from nearby boats for fear of damaging them! That's not filling me with confidence, I'd use any of the alternatives in my lounge.

-When I bought my boat it came with flares. I'd long since decided flares had no place on a boat of mine so I set about getting rid. I won't bore people with the long tale of woe and frustration dealing with the disorganized local CG who were the only people I could find to dispose of them. After 3 months I let the reds off in my garden and let the smokes off on the beach at night. (I used a test rig so I didn't have to touch the reds.) Personally I thought the reds were lethal. A month or so later the local CG called to arrange a disposal appointment. I told them I'd let them off. He told me they didn't advise that because it was dangerous! FFS if something is dangerous in a controlled situation in my garden a 10 minute drive from A+E how are they safe on a boat in an emergency?

-In an emergency, my kids (4+9) can handle the emergency comms, because they're electronic. They might not do a textbook job but they'll do it without worsening the situation. (My emergency comms wouldn't be textbook either.) Are flares really the ideal emergency comms for a 4yo to be responsible for?

- I have a 4yo on board. What if he finds the flares. and decides to play? If he touches the DSC button or the Handheld or even an Epirb it would be unfortunate, but nobody would die.

-Nov the 5th. I was out one year and saw 4 red parachute flares in different places around the Solent. I'm sure there were more I missed. It generated Zero calls on 16 and I didn't hear or see any search activity on my scanner. If a VHF stopped working for 4 days in November would we regard that as acceptable?

- I've seen a flare in daylight in the Solent on a busy sunny day. I didn't get an accurate position for it myself. About 10,000 other people had seen it and were on 16 straight away reporting it. Nobody had got an accurate position for it, nothing was found.

We can all think of obscure scenarios where only flares will work, but they're becoming pretty elaborate. I'm certain many of us, on balance, are far safer without flares. ( I'm sure the relative risks could be calculated.)

EDIT: LED and laser flares tested - Practical Boat Owner I had thought you get 4 minutes of light from a conventional flare. Turns out nearer to 60 seconds. So as a 'guide you in' tool the LED flares way out perform 'burny' ones. At five mile distance 60 seconds of light isn't going to help much. The range of handheld flares LED or 'burny' is limited by the horizon you could even pull an LED flare up the mast on a halyard and guide someone in from further away with unbroken visual contact the whole way in. I'm amazed it's even up for debate. Do people want a really, really bright light that can be seen as far as the horizon and remains on as long as you need it, or an INCREDIBLY bright light that can been seen as far as the horizon for a tiny period of time and then turns itself off. Oh and the latter comes with many drawbacks and the former has no drawbacks.

 

[Gary Fox]

Some random thoughts:

- I was looking through my local RNLI shouts a couple of years back. The number of shouts for "Flare sighted, nothing found " was alarming. 'EPIRB triggered, nothing found would be errr, unusual.'

- I saw a flare demo in a boat park. The guy wore leather gauntlets, eye-protection and stood by two buckets of sand. He had moved away from nearby boats for fear of damaging them! That's not filling me with confidence, I'd use any of the alternatives in my lounge.

-When I bought my boat it came with flares. I'd long since decided flares had no place on a boat of mine so I set about getting rid. I won't bore people with the long tale of woe and frustration dealing with the disorganized local CG who were the only people I could find to dispose of them. After 3 months I let the reds off in my garden and let the smokes off on the beach at night. (I used a test rig so I didn't have to touch the reds.) Personally I thought the reds were lethal. A month or so later the local CG called to arrange a disposal appointment. I told them I'd let them off. He told me they didn't advise that because it was dangerous! FFS if something is dangerous in a controlled situation in my garden a 10 minute drive from A+E how are they safe on a boat in an emergency?

-In an emergency, my kids (4+9) can handle the emergency comms, because they're electronic. They might not do a textbook job but they'll do it without worsening the situation. (My emergency comms wouldn't be textbook either.) Are flares really the ideal emergency comms for a 4yo to be responsible for?

- I have a 4yo on board. What if he finds the flares. and decides to play? If he touches the DSC button or the Handheld or even an Epirb it would be unfortunate, but nobody would die.

-Nov the 5th. I was out one year and saw 4 red parachute flares in different places around the Solent. I'm sure there were more I missed. It generated Zero calls on 16 and I didn't hear or see any search activity on my scanner. If a VHF stopped working for 4 days in November would we regard that as acceptable?

- I've seen a flare in daylight in the Solent on a busy sunny day. I didn't get an accurate position for it myself. About 10,000 other people had seen it and were on 16 straight away reporting it. Nobody had got an accurate position for it, nothing was found.

We can all think of obscure scenarios where only flares will work, but they're becoming pretty elaborate. I'm certain many of us, on balance, are far safer without flares. ( I'm sure the relative risks could be calculated.)

EDIT: LED and laser flares tested - Practical Boat Owner I had thought you get 4 minutes of light from a conventional flare. Turns out nearer to 60 seconds. So as a 'guide you in' tool the LED flares way out perform 'burny' ones. At five mile distance 60 seconds of light isn't going to help much. The range of handheld flares LED or 'burny' is limited by the horizon you could even pull an LED flare up the mast on a halyard and guide someone in from further away with unbroken visual contact the whole way in. I'm amazed it's even up for debate. Do people want a really, really bright light that can be seen as far as the horizon and remains on as long as you need it, or an INCREDIBLY bright light that can been seen as far as the horizon for a tiny period of time and then turns itself off. Oh and the latter comes with many drawbacks and the former has no drawbacks.

You have merely (further) convinced me that the anti-flare movement is based on ignorance, fear, emotion and anecdote rather than reality, experience or common sense.

 

[Mark-1]

You have merely (further) convinced me that the anti-flare movement is based on ignorance, fear, emotion and anecdote rather than reality, experience or common sense.

I wasn't setting out a comprehensive case that flares are less safe\effective than the alternatives. I was just stating a few random thoughts.

If you want the basis of the case then this is a starting point:

Carriage of Pyrotechnic Flares | Current Affairs | Knowledge & Advice | RYA - Royal Yachting Association

 

[Stemar]

You have merely (further) convinced me that the anti-flare movement is based on ignorance, fear, emotion and anecdote rather than reality, experience or common sense.

One could say the same thing about the arguments against laser/LED flares.

We all have to do our own risk assessment. Mine is that, for Solent pottering, I have several means of calling for help, but for the final "guide the lifeboat/helicopter in" job, an electronic flare is far better than a firework, simply because it will stay alight so much longer and, if I'm alone, I can tape it to the backstay and leave it on if I'm busy with something else, like not sinking. No way would I risk doing that with a firework of any sort. If Milady or an inexperienced passenger is with me, no way am I going to trust them with a big, hot flame when they're already scared.

 

[boomerangben]

Thanks everybody for an interesting debate. It appears that opinions haven't changed much in the last four years which is when I last looked into it. I think I'll buy a LED flare and keep my out of date handhelds. I have called for help on the radio but in nearly 50 years of boating, never had to use a flare. I must have spent a lot of money on flares in that time.

Before you make the leap, could I suggest the following thoughts? (I used to fly SAR helicopters but these are my own views, opinions and observations). The MCA have regulations so that their SAR assets are optimised to the kit used by mariners to raise the alarm and attract attention. It might be useful to put yourself in the point of view of the searchers. Lifeboats are similar to boats, but head up to the top of a 200’ cliff and have a look at the sea in front of you. That’s what a helicopter crew sees when they are looking for you (although they do have a very fancy camera system too). If you only sail by day, just how visible is an LED on a bright sunny day? Smoke flares are unsurpassed in my opinion for pin pointing your position by day. Coloured LEDs are invisible or at best indistinct on night vision goggles. Those bright blue lights on ambulances - invisible to NVG, the red lights on TV aerials and wind turbines - bearly visible and not distinguishable against back ground lights. There is no mistaking a handheld flare. Lasers are amongst crew’s worst nightmare. The bright flash experienced is distracting and severely damages night vision. Pilots are trained to turn away from lasers and as with LEDs, just how effective are they by day?

I still fly over the sea for a living and am provided with a lifejacket with lights whistles sprayhood and have a night/day flare and PLB stuffed under my right armpit. Trust me if I thought an LED flare was better, that’s what I’d carry but I am very happy with the night/day. Still have flares on the boat and will continue to do so.

 

[boomerangben]

S

One could say the same thing about the arguments against laser/LED flares.

We all have to do our own risk assessment. Mine is that, for Solent pottering, I have several means of calling for help, but for the final "guide the lifeboat/helicopter in" job, an electronic flare is far better than a firework, simply because it will stay alight so much longer and, if I'm alone, I can tape it to the backstay and leave it on if I'm busy with something else, like not sinking. No way would I risk doing that with a firework of any sort. If Milady or an inexperienced passenger is with me, no way am I going to trust them with a big, hot flame when they're already scared.
[/QUOTE

One could say the same thing about the arguments against laser/LED flares.

We all have to do our own risk assessment. Mine is that, for Solent pottering, I have several means of calling for help, but for the final "guide the lifeboat/helicopter in" job, an electronic flare is far better than a firework, simply because it will stay alight so much longer and, if I'm alone, I can tape it to the backstay and leave it on if I'm busy with something else, like not sinking. No way would I risk doing that with a firework of any sort. If Milady or an inexperienced passenger is with me, no way am I going to trust them with a big, hot flame when they're already scared.

Use a floating smoke, pull the pin and toss it over the side. Maybe handhelds float too?

 

[LadyInBed]

I found this interesting Laser Pointer Safety - Different lasers' hazards compared